Hardware Forum / Peripherals / Printers / January 2008
Re-thinking Inkjets
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LF - 20 Jan 2008 18:02 GMT Inkjet design took a wrong turn, actually several of them. My 20-year- old HP Deskjet runs fine (with several roller cleanings); my 2-year- old Canon self destructed with light to normal use. Increasing complexity, increasing cost per page, declining mechanical reliability and software glitches are common.
I wonder ... what would it take to build a simple, reliable, user- serviceable, refillable inkjet printer? You know, something on the idea of OPPC (One Printer Per Child). Inkjets have the potential to provide affordable and reliable technology? How might we get from here to there?
Best, Larry
Michael Johnson - 20 Jan 2008 18:56 GMT > Inkjet design took a wrong turn, actually several of them. My 20-year- > old HP Deskjet runs fine (with several roller cleanings); my 2-year- > old Canon self destructed with light to normal use. Increasing > complexity, increasing cost per page, declining mechanical reliability > and software glitches are common. Today's economic model for color printers, both laser and inkjet, is to sell the printer cheap and then gouge the users on ink consumables. This model apparently works because every printer manufacturer uses it.
> I wonder ... what would it take to build a simple, reliable, user- > serviceable, refillable inkjet printer? You know, something on the > idea of OPPC (One Printer Per Child). Inkjets have the potential to > provide affordable and reliable technology? How might we get from > here to there? You ask what it will take...... IMO, it will take government intervention. I don't like the idea more regulations but the government needs to treat ink consumables just like motor oil, brake pads, gasoline, tires etc. That is the ink/toner in printers are consumables and any business entity has the right to market substitute cartridges for any printer. The idea of granting a patent for ink/toner cartridges only promotes monopolistic practices by the printer manufacturers. A new cartridge design does nothing to improve the product in any meaningful way and these patents are being abused by the printer companies to further their grip on the ink consumables market and to price gouge consumers.
Another angle the government could affect change is to mandate the current ink/toner consumables model promotes excessive waste and then mandate the printer companies engineer their printers to to give the option that the cartridges be refillable by the consumer. This would have the same affect as what I described above, IMO.
Burt - 20 Jan 2008 20:49 GMT >> Inkjet design took a wrong turn, actually several of them. My 20-year- >> old HP Deskjet runs fine (with several roller cleanings); my 2-year- [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > cartridges be refillable by the consumer. This would have the same affect > as what I described above, IMO. LF - I certainly agree with issues ot longevity and cost of consumables. what you've left out of the equation is the vast improvement in the last several years of photo quality printing that has occurred in the inkjet market. Additionally, you can now buy a printer for little more than $100 with which to print very nice photos. Unfortunately, the printer manufacturers have taken the business model of the old Gillette razor of lowballing the printer and killing us with ink prices.
Michael Johnson - 20 Jan 2008 21:34 GMT >>> Inkjet design took a wrong turn, actually several of them. My 20-year- >>> old HP Deskjet runs fine (with several roller cleanings); my 2-year- [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > manufacturers have taken the business model of the old Gillette razor of > lowballing the printer and killing us with ink prices. This is why the consumables need to be put on the open market to be manufactured by anyone. Just like the tires on your car.
measekite - 21 Jan 2008 00:00 GMT >>>> Inkjet design took a wrong turn, actually several of them. My >>>> 20-year- [quoted text clipped - 41 lines] > This is why the consumables need to be put on the open market to be > manufactured by anyone. Just like the tires on your car. They already are. You can buy many brands of paper and it will fit in your paper tray and print on your printer. I use ilford and epson paper in my Canon and use Hammermill in an HP as well as Canon.
Richard Steinfeld - 22 Jan 2008 23:13 GMT > This is why the consumables need to be put on the open market to be > manufactured by anyone. Just like the tires on your car. Michael and everyone,
I believe that we probably have laws in place to take care of this, laws in the arena known as "restraint of trade." It's common for dominant corporations to try to push the envelope, to see what they can get away with. Politicians who beat the drum against regulation fan these fires; they should be tarred and feathered and run out of town for the corrupt scoundrels that they are, at least in those countries where people like this have run the show.
And Epson's behavior has been especially egregious due to the fact that you, the consumer, are paying extra for that chip on the cartridge: so you're paying to be screwed.
But let's not overlook that true competition can level the playing field somewhat. I'm thinking, of course, of Kodak, and the monkey wrench that they've attempted to throw into the marketplace. Their model, as many here know, is to sell the printers for a higher price, and sell the ink for much less.
We're in real trouble when outrageous profits become commonplace, normal, and expected by the consumer. For example, I just paid $5 for a pair of replacement headphone pads at Radio Shack. I calculate the in-company markup on this purchase at 10,000 percent! And I suspect that this kind of profit is normal for Radio Shack on small items. What's the real markup on ink?
When a commercial ink reloader refills a cartridge, the handling cost is vastly higher than the original manufacturing cost. There's the intake and inspection of the "core." Then it must be cleaned thoroughly inside and out. Finally, it's filled and tested again. Cartridges that fail during either intake or final test are discarded. Lacking the economy of scale of the OEM, all unit costs are higher. Yet, the reloader sells the refilled color cartridge for 1/3 of what I'd pay for the OEM item at Costco.
Corporations will act the bully to keep competition away, to protect their turf and their lucre. When Ben and Jerry ran their ice cream business, they had to sue conspiring competitors who were muscling them off supermarket shelves. Will the major printer players collude to keep Kodak out of the stores? And why are so few manufacturers in this inkjet business, anyway? Why don't we see Oki, Panasonic, and Konica inkjet machines? Why isn't Samsung in the US marketplace? What gives?
When there's true competition in a field, and the regulation and legal muscle to enforce competition, capitalism can work just fine. I think we need this kind of vigorous encouragement for everyones' benefit (except for HP, Canon, Lexmark, and Epson).
Richard
Michael Johnson - 23 Jan 2008 01:31 GMT >> This is why the consumables need to be put on the open market to be >> manufactured by anyone. Just like the tires on your car. [quoted text clipped - 47 lines] > need this kind of vigorous encouragement for everyones' benefit (except > for HP, Canon, Lexmark, and Epson). I usually don't look for government regulation to solve a problem in the market place. However, it is obvious that the printer manufacturers are making too much money from OEM ink sales for any of them to break the current trends. Even Kodak with its new strategy is still raping the consumer on ink costs. They just aren't doing it to the same degree as the others. True competition is the only way to prevent price gouging. Ink tanks don't make a printer print better, faster or be more reliable. They hold ink and that is it. Just like your gas tank holds gas. Ink is consumable and the only reason for a patent on an ink cartridge is to corner the market on replacement cartridges by the printer manufacturer. The whole issue could be solved by a minor tweak of the laws to allow third party manufacture of ink and cartridges. Once this happens you will see the cost of OEM ink drop like a stone.
measekite - 23 Jan 2008 01:43 GMT >> This is why the consumables need to be put on the open market to be >> manufactured by anyone. Just like the tires on your car. [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > that you, the consumer, are paying extra for that chip on the > cartridge: so you're paying to be screwed. Nobody wants to pay extra for anything they do not want but it is a free country for a company to mfg what they want the way they want and sell it to who they want. If you do not like it do not buy it.
snip
> Richard Aftermarketink@gmail.com - 23 Jan 2008 02:36 GMT A good choise is quality aftermarket ink...one designed for your printer by the factory. You can use any generic ink in your Canon...according to Canon.
DanG - 20 Jan 2008 22:00 GMT > Inkjet design took a wrong turn, actually several of them. My 20-year- > old HP Deskjet runs fine (with several roller cleanings); my 2-year- > old Canon self destructed with light to normal use. Increasing > complexity, increasing cost per page, declining mechanical reliability > and software glitches are common. Yes, well, a $50 printer will make that old HP look silly in the print quality department. There's no point in making a serviceable printer when they already cost less than a set of ink tanks. Anyone with a modicum of ability can figure out how to refill the ink tanks and reduce those costs dramatically. That just leaves software in your list of gripes. It's not hard to figure out which printer makers excel in software creation and support.
Costs per page have been steadily declining for years, especially for the techno savvy folks who print large volumes and refill or use compatible tanks.
> I wonder ... what would it take to build a simple, reliable, user- > serviceable, refillable inkjet printer? You know, something on the [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Best, > Larry Simple, reliable affordable printers already exist, and have for years. You can find them in the Sunday paper every week. Wake up and smell the coffee.
measekite - 20 Jan 2008 23:56 GMT > Inkjet design took a wrong turn, actually several of them. My 20-year- > old HP Deskjet runs fine (with several roller cleanings); that is a piece of trashy garbage. Poor paper feed and poor print quality. I threw mine in the garbage along with DOS.
> my 2-year- > old Canon self destructed with light to normal use. Increasing > complexity, increasing cost per page, declining mechanical reliability > and software glitches are common. > Why my Canon IP4000 and my HP990Cse (the first really terrific HP inkjet printer) has a reasonable cost per page. increasingly mechanical reliability and no software glitches.
> I wonder ... what would it take to build a simple, reliable, user- > serviceable, refillable inkjet printer? There is not decent ink available to refill it with. To bad the OEMs do not just have ink tanks and you can buy OEM ink at a reasonable price and just add ink to the tank.
> You know, something on the > idea of OPPC (One Printer Per Child). Inkjets have the potential to [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Best, > Larry Frank - 21 Jan 2008 06:45 GMT ...his usual lying SPAM! heheheh...is this guy a fuckwit moron POS loser idiot or what...LOL! He's a school boy who lives under a rock...! Frank
Gel - 21 Jan 2008 21:07 GMT A step ahead would be a waste ink tank that's easy to clean/replace IMO!!
> ...his usual lying SPAM! > heheheh...is this guy a fuckwit moron POS loser idiot or what...LOL! > He's a school boy who lives under a rock...! > Frank measekite - 21 Jan 2008 23:16 GMT
Gel wrote:
A step ahead would be a waste ink tank that's easy to clean/replace
IMO!!
On 21 Jan, 06:45, Frank <f...@signm.crt> wrote:
measekite wrote:
...his usual lying SPAM!
heheheh...
I think he means hahaha not hehehe or hohoho
is this guy a fuckwit moron POS loser idiot or what...LOL!
no more he he he now it is lol
He's a school boy who lives under a rock...!
Frank
Frank - 21 Jan 2008 23:43 GMT ...stuff only a brain dead fukwit moron idiot like him would write. Get a life you dipshit loser. Frank
LF - 21 Jan 2008 00:35 GMT <snip>
So far, posters responded to my introduction. My question is here:
> I wonder ... what would it take to build a simple, reliable, user- > serviceable, refillable inkjet printer? <snip> What do you think?
Best, Larry
LF - 21 Jan 2008 00:38 GMT > <snip> > > So far, posters responded to my introduction. My question is here: > > > I wonder ... what would it take to build a simple, reliable, user- > > serviceable, refillable inkjet printer? <snip> I'm asking from a business and technical point of view. I'm not optimistic that the current political climate would promote "green" inkjet technology, as in Europe.
> What do you think? > > Best, > Larry Aftermarketink@gmail.com - 21 Jan 2008 01:19 GMT > > <snip> > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > - Show quoted text - It would take a change in the current inkjet printer sales model currently employed by the OEM's.
As far as "a simple, reliable, user-serviceable, refillable inkjet printer"
You may wont to look at an older Canon such as the PIXMA iP4000. The printhead is made to be removed and replaced as needed. The printer is relatively simple in it operation. The cartridge set is easily refillable, and compatibles are relatively inexpensive.
I have this printer and use it daily for about 2 years problem free...same printhead...and never had a problem with clogging. I cartridges I have installed allow me to refill the cartriges while still in the printer. The larger black cartridge is pigment black and is excellent for text, and as far as quality great. There is a post somewhere on this forum that has a link to a Canon's management person stating that generic black ink is as good as thier own OEM ink. I don't use generic ink...just ink specifically designed for this printer by a third party.
GMAN - 28 Jan 2008 17:06 GMT >Inkjet design took a wrong turn, actually several of them. My 20-year- >old HP Deskjet runs fine (with several roller cleanings); my 2-year- >old Canon self destructed with light to normal use. Increasing >complexity, increasing cost per page, declining mechanical reliability >and software glitches are common. And ever increasingly smaller ink carts at $40 each!!!!!! +
>I wonder ... what would it take to build a simple, reliable, user- >serviceable, refillable inkjet printer? You know, something on the [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >Best, >Larry measekite - 29 Jan 2008 05:45 GMT
GMAN wrote:
In article <f5c526b4-2a5c-4d44-8ee1-e2b87fe4a04b@y5g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>, LF <fieman@gmail.com> wrote:
Inkjet design took a wrong turn, actually several of them. My 20-year-
old HP Deskjet runs fine (with several roller cleanings);
I had one of those and compared to the printers of today it is nothing
but a piece of antiquated garbage.
my 2-year-
old Canon self destructed with light to normal use.
My four year old Canon is as good as my 7 year old HP.
Increasing
complexity, increasing cost per page, declining mechanical reliability
and software glitches are common.
Greater ease of use with decreased complexity and decreasing cost per
page plus increased mechanical reliability are hallmarks of today's
printers.
And ever increasingly smaller ink carts at $40 each!!!!!!
And ink carts for less than $10.00 on the Canon.
+
I wonder ... what would it take to build a simple, reliable, user-
serviceable, refillable inkjet printer?
The answer is very simple. It would take a dramatic reduction or
elimination of profit that the present printer mfg are making.
You know, something on the
idea of OPPC (One Printer Per Child). Inkjets have the potential to
provide affordable and reliable technology? How might we get from
here to there?
Best,
Larry
LF - 30 Jan 2008 04:17 GMT Measekite, Who are you? Do you have affiliations with any technology companies? Will you come forward, or hide under anonymity?
Best, Larry
Michael Johnson - 30 Jan 2008 04:28 GMT > Measekite, > Who are you? Do you have affiliations with any technology companies? > Will you come forward, or hide under anonymity? Kill file him and make your experience here more pleasant. If it weren't for people responding to him I would never know he exists.
measekite - 30 Jan 2008 19:37 GMT > Measekite, > Who are you? Do you have affiliations with any technology companies? > Not at all.
I tell the truth.
Some of the businessmen who extoll the virtues of the crap ink are the ones that are hiding. Some are liars. And then there are a few who are misinformed and some who do not have high standards.
There are a few who will admit this.
They print a great deal so their risk of a clogged head it less.
They are willing to accept lower quality for their photos.
They print a lot of business documents that are short lived and extra quality is not that important to them.
They are willing to accept the trade offs so they spend less money on ink. The do admit they are not saving money for they spend less and get less.
I have not problem with these people. It works for them and they are honest about it.
However the squawkers in this group (many groups have idiots) do not want to admit the truth. Many are in or friends with the fly by niters who sell the crap ink and others just have big egos. If you read a lot of posts you can tell who the holier than thou are.
> Will you come forward, or hide under anonymity? > > Best, > Larry Frank - 30 Jan 2008 22:26 GMT >> Measekite, >> Who are you? Do you have affiliations with any technology companies? >> > > Not at all. He's far too stupid as to be employable.
> I tell the truth. hehehehe...you wouldn't know the truth if it smacked you upside your pointy brainless head! You are the biggest liar ever to post in this ng...and we all know it. Ever wonder why you don't have any friends you moron? Ever wonder why just about everyone here has you kill filed? Ever wonder why almost everyone in all of the other ng's where you post think you are the biggest a.shole idiot loser to walk the face of the earth? Are you really that fukkin numb and dumb? You are aren't you! Frank
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