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Hardware Forum / Peripherals / Printers / January 2008

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Re-thinking Inkjets

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LF - 20 Jan 2008 18:02 GMT
Inkjet design took a wrong turn, actually several of them.  My 20-year-
old HP Deskjet runs fine (with several roller cleanings); my 2-year-
old Canon self destructed with light to normal use.  Increasing
complexity, increasing cost per page, declining mechanical reliability
and software glitches are common.

I wonder ... what would it take to build a simple, reliable, user-
serviceable, refillable inkjet printer?   You know, something on the
idea of OPPC (One Printer Per Child).  Inkjets have the potential to
provide affordable and reliable technology?  How might we get from
here to there?

Best,
Larry
Michael Johnson - 20 Jan 2008 18:56 GMT
> Inkjet design took a wrong turn, actually several of them.  My 20-year-
> old HP Deskjet runs fine (with several roller cleanings); my 2-year-
> old Canon self destructed with light to normal use.  Increasing
> complexity, increasing cost per page, declining mechanical reliability
> and software glitches are common.

Today's economic model for color printers, both laser and inkjet, is to
sell the printer cheap and then gouge the users on ink consumables.
This model apparently works because every printer manufacturer uses it.

> I wonder ... what would it take to build a simple, reliable, user-
> serviceable, refillable inkjet printer?   You know, something on the
> idea of OPPC (One Printer Per Child).  Inkjets have the potential to
> provide affordable and reliable technology?  How might we get from
> here to there?

You ask what it will take...... IMO, it will take government
intervention.  I don't like the idea more regulations but the government
needs to treat ink consumables just like motor oil, brake pads,
gasoline, tires etc.  That is the ink/toner in printers are consumables
and any business entity has the right to market substitute cartridges
for any printer.  The idea of granting a patent for ink/toner cartridges
only promotes monopolistic practices by the printer manufacturers.  A
new cartridge design does nothing to improve the product in any
meaningful way and these patents are being abused by the printer
companies to further their grip on the ink consumables market and to
price gouge consumers.

Another angle the government could affect change is to mandate the
current ink/toner consumables model promotes excessive waste and then
mandate the printer companies engineer their printers to to give the
option that the cartridges be refillable by the consumer.  This would
have the same affect as what I described above, IMO.
Burt - 20 Jan 2008 20:49 GMT
>> Inkjet design took a wrong turn, actually several of them.  My 20-year-
>> old HP Deskjet runs fine (with several roller cleanings); my 2-year-
[quoted text clipped - 28 lines]
> cartridges be refillable by the consumer.  This would have the same affect
> as what I described above, IMO.

LF - I certainly agree with issues ot longevity and cost of consumables.
what you've left out of the equation is the vast improvement in the last
several years of photo quality printing that has occurred in the inkjet
market.  Additionally, you can now buy a printer for little more than $100
with which to print very nice photos.  Unfortunately, the printer
manufacturers have taken the business model of the old Gillette razor of
lowballing the printer and killing us with ink prices.
Michael Johnson - 20 Jan 2008 21:34 GMT
>>> Inkjet design took a wrong turn, actually several of them.  My 20-year-
>>> old HP Deskjet runs fine (with several roller cleanings); my 2-year-
[quoted text clipped - 34 lines]
> manufacturers have taken the business model of the old Gillette razor of
> lowballing the printer and killing us with ink prices.

This is why the consumables need to be put on the open market to be
manufactured by anyone.  Just like the tires on your car.
measekite - 21 Jan 2008 00:00 GMT
>>>> Inkjet design took a wrong turn, actually several of them.  My
>>>> 20-year-
[quoted text clipped - 41 lines]
> This is why the consumables need to be put on the open market to be
> manufactured by anyone.  Just like the tires on your car.
They already are.  You can buy many brands of paper and it will fit in
your paper tray and print on your printer.  I use ilford and epson paper
in my Canon and use Hammermill in an HP as well as Canon.
Richard Steinfeld - 22 Jan 2008 23:13 GMT
> This is why the consumables need to be put on the open market to be
> manufactured by anyone.  Just like the tires on your car.

Michael and everyone,

I believe that we probably have laws in place to take care of this, laws
in the arena known as "restraint of trade." It's common for dominant
corporations to try to push the envelope, to see what they can get away
with. Politicians who beat the drum against regulation fan these fires;
they should be tarred and feathered and run out of town for the corrupt
scoundrels that they are, at least in those countries where people like
this have run the show.

And Epson's behavior has been especially egregious due to the fact that
you, the consumer, are paying extra for that chip on the cartridge: so
you're paying to be screwed.

But let's not overlook that true competition can level the playing field
somewhat. I'm thinking, of course, of Kodak, and the monkey wrench that
they've attempted to throw into the marketplace. Their model, as many
here know, is to sell the printers for a higher price, and sell the ink
for much less.

We're in real trouble when outrageous profits become commonplace,
normal, and expected by the consumer. For example, I just paid $5 for a
pair of replacement headphone pads at Radio Shack. I calculate the
in-company markup on this purchase at 10,000 percent! And I suspect that
this kind of profit is normal for Radio Shack on small items. What's the
real markup on ink?

When a commercial ink reloader refills a cartridge, the handling cost is
vastly higher than the original manufacturing cost. There's the intake
and inspection of the "core." Then it must be cleaned thoroughly inside
and out. Finally, it's filled and tested again. Cartridges that fail
during either intake or final test are discarded. Lacking the economy of
scale of the OEM, all unit costs are higher. Yet, the reloader sells the
refilled color cartridge for 1/3 of what I'd pay for the OEM item at Costco.

Corporations will act the bully to keep competition away, to protect
their turf and their lucre. When Ben and Jerry ran their ice cream
business, they had to sue conspiring competitors who were muscling them
off supermarket shelves. Will the major printer players collude to keep
Kodak out of the stores? And why are so few manufacturers in this inkjet
business, anyway? Why don't we see Oki, Panasonic, and Konica inkjet
machines? Why isn't Samsung in the US marketplace? What gives?

When there's true competition in a field, and the regulation and legal
muscle to enforce competition, capitalism can work just fine. I think we
need this kind of vigorous encouragement for everyones' benefit (except
for HP, Canon, Lexmark, and Epson).

Richard
Michael Johnson - 23 Jan 2008 01:31 GMT
>> This is why the consumables need to be put on the open market to be
>> manufactured by anyone.  Just like the tires on your car.
[quoted text clipped - 47 lines]
> need this kind of vigorous encouragement for everyones' benefit (except
> for HP, Canon, Lexmark, and Epson).

I usually don't look for government regulation to solve a problem in the
market place.  However, it is obvious that the printer manufacturers are
making too much money from OEM ink sales for any of them to break the
current trends.  Even Kodak with its new strategy is still raping the
consumer on ink costs.  They just aren't doing it to the same degree as
the others.  True competition is the only way to prevent price gouging.
 Ink tanks don't make a printer print better, faster or be more
reliable.    They hold ink and that is it.  Just like your gas tank
holds gas.  Ink is consumable and the only reason for a patent on an ink
cartridge is to corner the market on replacement cartridges by the
printer manufacturer.  The whole issue could be solved by a minor tweak
of the laws to allow third party manufacture of ink and cartridges.
Once this happens you will see the cost of OEM ink drop like a stone.
measekite - 23 Jan 2008 01:43 GMT
>> This is why the consumables need to be put on the open market to be
>> manufactured by anyone.  Just like the tires on your car.
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> that you, the consumer, are paying extra for that chip on the
> cartridge: so you're paying to be screwed.
Nobody wants to pay extra for anything they do not want but it is a free
country for a company to mfg what they want the way they want and sell
it to who they want.  If you do not like it do not buy it.

snip
> Richard
Aftermarketink@gmail.com - 23 Jan 2008 02:36 GMT
A good choise is quality aftermarket ink...one designed for your
printer by the factory. You can use any generic ink in your
Canon...according to Canon.
DanG - 20 Jan 2008 22:00 GMT
> Inkjet design took a wrong turn, actually several of them.  My 20-year-
> old HP Deskjet runs fine (with several roller cleanings); my 2-year-
> old Canon self destructed with light to normal use.  Increasing
> complexity, increasing cost per page, declining mechanical reliability
> and software glitches are common.

Yes, well, a $50 printer will make that old HP look silly in the print
quality department. There's no point in making a serviceable printer when
they already cost less than a set of ink tanks. Anyone with a modicum of
ability can figure out how to refill the ink tanks and reduce those costs
dramatically. That just leaves software in your list of gripes. It's not
hard to figure out which printer makers excel in software creation and
support.

Costs per page have been steadily declining for years, especially for the
techno savvy folks who print large volumes and refill or use compatible
tanks.

> I wonder ... what would it take to build a simple, reliable, user-
> serviceable, refillable inkjet printer?   You know, something on the
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> Best,
> Larry

Simple, reliable affordable printers already exist, and have for years. You
can find them in the Sunday paper every week. Wake up and smell the coffee.
measekite - 20 Jan 2008 23:56 GMT
> Inkjet design took a wrong turn, actually several of them.  My 20-year-
> old HP Deskjet runs fine (with several roller cleanings);
that is a piece of trashy garbage.  Poor paper feed and poor print
quality.  I threw mine in the garbage along with DOS.
> my 2-year-
> old Canon self destructed with light to normal use.  Increasing
> complexity, increasing cost per page, declining mechanical reliability
> and software glitches are common.
>  
Why my Canon IP4000 and my HP990Cse (the first really terrific HP inkjet
printer) has a reasonable cost per page. increasingly mechanical
reliability and no software glitches.
> I wonder ... what would it take to build a simple, reliable, user-
> serviceable, refillable inkjet printer?
There is not decent ink available to refill it with.   To bad the OEMs
do not just have ink tanks and you can buy OEM ink at a reasonable price
and just add ink to the tank.
>   You know, something on the
> idea of OPPC (One Printer Per Child).  Inkjets have the potential to
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> Best,
> Larry
Frank - 21 Jan 2008 06:45 GMT
...his usual lying SPAM!
heheheh...is this guy a fuckwit moron POS loser idiot or what...LOL!
He's a school boy who lives under a rock...!
Frank
Gel - 21 Jan 2008 21:07 GMT
A step ahead would be a waste ink tank that's easy to clean/replace
IMO!!

> ...his usual lying SPAM!
> heheheh...is this guy a fuckwit moron POS loser idiot or what...LOL!
> He's a school boy who lives under a rock...!
> Frank
measekite - 21 Jan 2008 23:16 GMT


Gel wrote:
A step ahead would be a waste ink tank that's easy to clean/replace
IMO!!

On 21 Jan, 06:45, Frank <f...@signm.crt> wrote:
  
measekite wrote:

...his usual lying SPAM!
heheheh...
I think he means hahaha not hehehe or hohoho
is this guy a fuckwit moron POS loser idiot or what...LOL!
    

no more he he he now it is lol
He's a school boy who lives under a rock...!
Frank
    

  
Frank - 21 Jan 2008 23:43 GMT
...stuff only a brain dead fukwit moron idiot like him would write.
Get a life you dipshit loser.
Frank
LF - 21 Jan 2008 00:35 GMT
<snip>

So far, posters responded to my introduction.  My question is here:

> I wonder ... what would it take to build a simple, reliable, user-
> serviceable, refillable inkjet printer?   <snip>  

What do you think?

Best,
Larry
LF - 21 Jan 2008 00:38 GMT
> <snip>
>
> So far, posters responded to my introduction.  My question is here:
>
> > I wonder ... what would it take to build a simple, reliable, user-
> > serviceable, refillable inkjet printer?   <snip>  

I'm asking from a business and technical point of view.  I'm not
optimistic that the current political climate would promote "green"
inkjet technology, as in Europe.

> What do you think?
>
> Best,
> Larry
Aftermarketink@gmail.com - 21 Jan 2008 01:19 GMT
> > <snip>
>
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>
> - Show quoted text -

It would take a change in the current inkjet printer sales model
currently employed by the OEM's.

As far as "a simple, reliable, user-serviceable, refillable inkjet
printer"

You may wont to look at an older Canon such as the PIXMA iP4000. The
printhead is made to be removed and replaced as needed. The printer is
relatively simple in it operation. The cartridge set is easily
refillable, and compatibles are relatively inexpensive.

I have this printer and use it daily for about 2 years problem
free...same printhead...and never had a problem with clogging. I
cartridges I have installed allow me to refill the cartriges while
still in the printer. The larger black cartridge is pigment black and
is excellent for text, and as far as quality great. There is a post
somewhere on this forum that has a link to a Canon's management person
stating that generic black ink is as good as thier own OEM ink. I
don't use generic ink...just ink specifically designed for this
printer by a third party.
GMAN - 28 Jan 2008 17:06 GMT
>Inkjet design took a wrong turn, actually several of them.  My 20-year-
>old HP Deskjet runs fine (with several roller cleanings); my 2-year-
>old Canon self destructed with light to normal use.  Increasing
>complexity, increasing cost per page, declining mechanical reliability
>and software glitches are common.

And ever increasingly smaller ink carts at $40 each!!!!!!
+
>I wonder ... what would it take to build a simple, reliable, user-
>serviceable, refillable inkjet printer?   You know, something on the
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>Best,
>Larry
measekite - 29 Jan 2008 05:45 GMT


GMAN wrote:
In article <f5c526b4-2a5c-4d44-8ee1-e2b87fe4a04b@y5g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>, LF <fieman@gmail.com> wrote:
  
Inkjet design took a wrong turn, actually several of them.  My 20-year-
old HP Deskjet runs fine (with several roller cleanings);
I had one of those and compared to the printers of today it is nothing but a piece of antiquated garbage.
 my 2-year-
old Canon self destructed with light to normal use. 
My four year old Canon is as good as my 7 year old HP.
 Increasing
complexity, increasing cost per page, declining mechanical reliability
and software glitches are common.
    
Greater ease of use with decreased complexity and decreasing cost per page plus increased mechanical reliability are hallmarks of today's printers.
    

And ever increasingly smaller ink carts at $40 each!!!!!!
  
And ink carts for less than $10.00 on the Canon.
+
  
I wonder ... what would it take to build a simple, reliable, user-
serviceable, refillable inkjet printer? 
The answer is very simple.  It would take a dramatic reduction or elimination of profit that the present printer mfg are making.
  You know, something on the
idea of OPPC (One Printer Per Child).  Inkjets have the potential to
provide affordable and reliable technology?  How might we get from
here to there?

Best,
Larry

    
LF - 30 Jan 2008 04:17 GMT
Measekite,
Who are you?  Do you have affiliations with any technology companies?
Will you come forward, or hide under anonymity?

Best,
Larry
Michael Johnson - 30 Jan 2008 04:28 GMT
> Measekite,
> Who are you?  Do you have affiliations with any technology companies?
> Will you come forward, or hide under anonymity?

Kill file him and make your experience here more pleasant.  If it
weren't for people responding to him I would never know he exists.
measekite - 30 Jan 2008 19:37 GMT
> Measekite,
> Who are you?  Do you have affiliations with any technology companies?
>  
Not at all.

I tell the truth.

Some of the businessmen who extoll the virtues of the crap ink are the
ones that are hiding.  Some are liars.  And then there are a few who are
misinformed and some who do not have high standards.

There are a few who will admit this.

They print a great deal so their risk of a clogged head it less.

They are willing to accept lower quality for their photos.

They print a lot of business documents that are short lived and extra
quality is not that important to them.

They are willing to accept the trade offs so they spend less money on
ink.  The do admit they are not saving money for they spend less and get
less.

I have not problem with these people.  It works for them and they are
honest about it.

However the squawkers in this group (many groups have idiots) do not
want to admit the truth.  Many are in or friends with the fly by niters
who sell the crap ink and others just have big egos.  If you read a lot
of posts you can tell who the holier than thou are.
> Will you come forward, or hide under anonymity?
>
> Best,
> Larry
Frank - 30 Jan 2008 22:26 GMT
>> Measekite,
>> Who are you?  Do you have affiliations with any technology companies?
>>  
>
> Not at all.

He's far too stupid as to be employable.

> I tell the truth.

hehehehe...you wouldn't know the truth if it smacked you upside your
pointy brainless head!
You are the biggest liar ever to post in this ng...and we all know it.
Ever wonder why you don't have any friends you moron? Ever wonder why
just about everyone here has you kill filed? Ever wonder why almost
everyone in all of the other ng's where you post think you are the
biggest a.shole idiot loser to walk the face of the earth?
Are you really that fukkin numb and dumb?
You are aren't you!
Frank
 
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