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Hardware Forum / Brand Name Systems / Dell / March 2007basic question
Here's a basic question. I have an Inspiron 2200 laptop. I usually keep the AC Adapter (is that what it's called?) plugged in. So the green light on the adapter unit is always on. I then connect the laptop when it needs charging (or just run it off the adapter when that's feasible). Am I doing any damage by keeping it plugged in like that? Should I unplug the adapter when not in use?? Also, some of the time when I'm not using the laptop, I just keep it plugged in. I assume there is no such thing as it being overcharged and that the battery is not damaged in any way. Correct? OK, that was two questions. Told you these were basic questions! Mel > Here's a basic question. I have an Inspiron 2200 laptop. > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > Mel my M60 has been plugged in, on mains power since I first got it out of the box 3 years ago................very occasionally I will unplug it and let the battery drain down. if the battery goes TU tomorrow, who cares, I'll go get an original new one. >Here's a basic question. I have an Inspiron 2200 laptop. > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > >Mel IMHO, safety says don't keep it plugged in when it is nto being used... Why take the chance that a component failure might cause a fire? >IMHO, safety says don't keep it plugged in when it is nto being >used... Why take the chance that a component failure might cause a >fire? I never considered this. Even when I read it I was thinking "what? a laptop catch on fire?". Hmmm..... A long time ago, wow, pre-'97 (I know I am getting old when I start thinking in terms of decades) I was chatting online on IRC when my monitor started to flicker and then went out. When I looked inside it, there were flames. When the fire department came I was holding my cat in the hallway. About 3 firefighters clad in heavy fire gear came clanking down the hall and my cat freaked out -- shredded my shirt (and my skin) getting away. >>IMHO, safety says don't keep it plugged in when it is nto being >>used... Why take the chance that a component failure might cause a [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > hall and my cat freaked out -- shredded my shirt (and my skin) getting > away. If the external power supply itself is UL listed, this should not be a concern. At a previous company, I used to be in charge of getting our products UL listed, and one of the requirements is that non-flammable materials are used. And even if an indivual component momentarily flames - resistors tend to do this - it shouldn't set any nearby components or the entire assembly aflame. I'd be willing to bet the monitor mentioned above was not UL listed. Some are, some aren't. Myself, I DO tend to shut off my PCs when I'm away for an extended period, but as a matter of energy conservation rather than safety. There is no harm in what you are doing, in terms of the AC adapter. Batteries ARE damage by being left in a laptop that is constantly plugged in. The culprit (and this varies by model) is a combination of slight overcharging and heat (from other components of the laptop, and possibly from being slightly but continuously overcharged). The best scenario for a laptop that is used in a fixed location and doesn't travel is this: -Remove the battery and store it in a drawer -Get a good low-cost 300 to 500VA UPS (about $30 for an APC model ... sometimes less with rebates) -Plug the power supply (adapter charger) into a battery backed up outlet of the UPS -Give the battery a bit of "exercise" (use and recharging) about every 60 days. -Battery makers recommend storing the battery in such cases with about a 60% charge > Here's a basic question. I have an Inspiron 2200 laptop. > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > Mel >There is no harm in what you are doing, in terms of the AC adapter. > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] >-Battery makers recommend storing the battery in such cases with about a >60% charge Barry, I still don't know if you are right but my old laptop battery lasted 18 months before needing replacement and it was plugged in when not in use. 18 months is supposedly the norm. Others say it makes little difference either way so I guess YMMV is my conclusion. 18 months is short. A properly cared for lithium battery can last 10 years. Many of these batteries cost $150 to $250. If you want to spend that every 18 months, it can be arranged, but personally I like having them last about a decade better. >> There is no harm in what you are doing, in terms of the AC adapter. >> [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > not in use. 18 months is supposedly the norm. Others say it makes > little difference either way so I guess YMMV is my conclusion. No way. 18 months is a reasonable average for a laptop battery. No way it works for 10 years. > 18 months is short. A properly cared for lithium battery can last 10 > years. Many of these batteries cost $150 to $250. If you want to spend [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] >> not in use. 18 months is supposedly the norm. Others say it makes >> little difference either way so I guess YMMV is my conclusion. Yes, and no. It all depends on how the computer and battery are used. I would say that a 10 year life is extreme, but entirely possible if the laptop owner keeps the battery in a drawer (to use Barry's words) when the laptop is not used while traveling. It all depends on how people want to trade off convenience of having the battery always installed and available versus wanting to conserve battery life. With UPS devices becoming cheap commodity items, instead of only heavy boxes used in server closets, Barry's scenario has at least some merit. On the other hand, a 10-year old notebook is pretty obsolete, so a 10-year battery life is somewhat moot. Ten years ago, a state-of-the-art notebook had some sort of Pentium or Pentium MMX, Windows 95, and as much as 128MB of memory. I don't think this sort of notebook computer would be acceptable today even in an impoverished 3rd world country... Ben Myers >No way. 18 months is a reasonable average for a laptop battery. No way it >works for 10 years. [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] >>> not in use. 18 months is supposedly the norm. Others say it makes >>> little difference either way so I guess YMMV is my conclusion. >Yes, and no. It all depends on how the computer and battery are used. I I agree with you. Obviously if you don't use the battery much, you can make it last a long time but I've never read anyone who claimed to have a laptop battery last even close to 10 years. If I understood Barry correctly, even he hasn't got one but makes an assertion that it should last so long. And I think he used the term "if properly cared for" so if no one gets 10 year outa their laptop batteries, it stands to reason per Barry's statement, that NO one is properly caring for their batteries. I kinda doubt this tho. Don't equate a 10-year old battery to a 10-year old laptop. The Toshiba 2487 series of batteries, for example, were used in hundreds of Toshiba laptops from 1995 to at least 2003, all the way from Pentium 75MHz to 2.4GHz Pentium 4's (and might even return some day). > Yes, and no. It all depends on how the computer and battery are used. I > would say that a 10 year life is extreme, but entirely possible if the laptop [quoted text clipped - 43 lines] >>>> not in use. 18 months is supposedly the norm. Others say it makes >>>> little difference either way so I guess YMMV is my conclusion. >No way. 18 months is a reasonable average for a laptop battery. No way it >works for 10 years. Tom, I got my first laugh of the day when Barry said 10 years. No need to say more :) . Tom, I am an engineer and also A+ and Network+ certified. I repair laptops. I have about 2 dozen Toshiba 2487 batteries here with 1995 to 1997 date codes. Lithium batteries are the most stable battery chemistry known. They can last almost 10 years if properly cared for. This subject has been discussed extensively on Comp.sys.laptops, thousands and thousands of posts. There is no reason for a lithium ion laptop battery to last any less than 5 years if it's not actually being used heavily, and closer to 10 years is common. Now if you are using the battery, if you are actually traveling with the laptop, that's a different story since lithium batteries have a "cycle" limit, in the mid-hundreds, so if you cycle the battery once a day then you won't more than 12-18 months out of it. But lots of people are using a laptop just as a compact computer and are not actually traveling with it, and don't really need a battery at all except as a very, very expensive UPS. Those people would be better off removing the battery, getting a UPS, and giving the battery some "exercise" every 60 to 120 days. And if they do that, they will get the better part of a decade of life out of the battery, should they need it for actual traveling later. > No way. 18 months is a reasonable average for a laptop battery. No way it > works for 10 years. [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] >>> not in use. 18 months is supposedly the norm. Others say it makes >>> little difference either way so I guess YMMV is my conclusion. > Lithium batteries are the most stable battery chemistry known. They can > last almost 10 years if properly > cared for. I'm no expert on this, but for example in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium_ion_cell under "disadvantages" it states: "A unique drawback of the Li-ion battery is that its life span is dependent upon aging from time of manufacturing (shelf life) regardless of whether it was charged, and not just on the number of charge/discharge cycles. So an older battery will not last as long as a new battery due solely to its age, unlike other batteries. This drawback is not widely publicized." Now I accept that wiki isn't the most rigourous of academic sources, but there are references given in this article which seem to check out. I'm also not sure about the "most stable" thing. Lithium-polymer cells are prone to several rather "exciting" failure modes unless extreme precautions are taken to ensure its operational limitations are observed in the application design. PDR >> Lithium batteries are the most stable battery chemistry known. They can >> last almost 10 years if properly [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > > PDR If you mean the fires, then that had nothing to do with LiIon, it had everything to do with a manufacturing defect that cause metal shavings to be imbedded in the polymer. Sony screwed up badly. Well, I'm sitting here with a couple dozen 7 to 10 year old lithium ion batteries (all Toshiba PA-2487 series) that will still run laptops for 2 hours. It's quite possible that when they were new, they would have run those laptops for 4 hours ... (although I doubt it ... reviews from these Toshiba laptops, when new, gave the battery life as 2 to 3 hours). And these are mostly from laptops bought off E-Bay, history completely unknown, but unlikely to have been "pristeen". They are about one-third to one-half of the laptops that I have gotten in from buying random low-cost laptops on E-Bay. >> Lithium batteries are the most stable battery chemistry known. They can >> last almost 10 years if properly [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > PDR >Well, I'm sitting here with a couple dozen 7 to 10 year old lithium ion >batteries (all Toshiba PA-2487 series) that will still run laptops for 2 [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >to one-half of the laptops that I have gotten in from buying random >low-cost laptops on E-Bay. >>> Lithium batteries are the most stable battery chemistry known. They can >>> last almost 10 years if properly >>> cared for. Inotherwords laptop batteries can last a long time if you take them out (proper care) and use your laptop in a immobile state? Is this correct? In a nutshell, yes. You will probably say that this doesn't make sense, but I'd argue, conversely, that for the portion of the laptop population that essentially never travels with the laptop (which, without arguing about exactly how large it is, is a very large part of the laptop population), it makes perfect sense. > In otherwords laptop batteries can last a long time if you take them > out (proper care) and use your laptop in a immobile state? Is this > correct? >In a nutshell, yes. > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >> out (proper care) and use your laptop in a immobile state? Is this >> correct? I'm not a battery guru but I will agree with you, for the laptops that sit immobile, I can't see any harm in removing the battery (time=?) to preserve its ability to hold a charge tho this could be wrong according to others. For the laptop's intended design (mobility), we both agree that the battery will not hold a charge as well as it did when new over years of use. So in retrospect, I might now just disagree with your use of the word "proper care" unless used in conjunction with immobile useage. As to how many laptops get used as immobile or mobile, I have no idea but was surprised to read you thought a very large part of the laptop population were immobile. I'm not arguing here just surprised. then let's just agree that nothing good happens to a fully charged battery sitting in a laptop that is plugged in to the wall 24x7, at least potentially exposing the battery to both overcharging and heat from other components of the laptop. >> In a nutshell, yes. >> [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > but was surprised to read you thought a very large part of the laptop > population were immobile. I'm not arguing here just surprised. >then let's just agree that nothing good happens to a fully charged >battery sitting in a laptop that is plugged in to the wall 24x7, at >least potentially exposing the battery to both overcharging and heat >from other components of the laptop. No, I'm not ready to agree to that but for now I agree (vs. others who might disagree) that taking the battery out shouldn't harm the battery and may help to preserve it, holding a charge for more months/years (but not forever). That isn't the same thing as your post above. Further, my e1405 powers down so much so that when I just shut the lid (but still logged in) and leave it plugged in for hours and pick it up later to resume, the laptop body is actually cold to the touch (not even warm). So "IF" I agreed to your post above, I'd have to qualify the word "heat" per model at best. Sorry tho, I'm not ready to agree to your post because after reading your source of info from an earlier post, it was obvious that many geeks and electrical engineers were in agreement and disagreement too. So therefore my official opinion is "undecided" (that neither agrees or disagrees with you now). Perhaps we are partially in agreement at present :) . >>Well, I'm sitting here with a couple dozen 7 to 10 year old lithium ion >>batteries (all Toshiba PA-2487 series) that will still run laptops for 2 [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >out (proper care) and use your laptop in a immobile state? Is this >correct? What about us people who just got their new Inspiron 6400? The battery is in the right front and has one of the rubber feet attached so unless we put 2 and 1/2 copies of PC Week under that part of the Laptop we rock all over. Does Dell make a dummy battery thingy to replace the real battery? Art >18 months is short. A properly cared for lithium battery can last 10 >years. Many of these batteries cost $150 to $250. If you want to spend >that every 18 months, it can be arranged, but personally I like having >them last about a decade better. I disagree. I read a lot and never read anything like your claim to date but let's assume you are right and I'm wrong. Can you give a source(s) to back up your claim that "laptop" batteries should last 10 years (or close to) if properly cared for in normal useage? I really want to read that for education purposes !! I service laptops and have several stacks of Toshiba 2487 batteries that have 1995 to 1997 date codes and that will still run a laptop for 2 hours. This has been discussed extensively on comp.sys.laptops, and my experiences are not unique and are backed up by many others as well. Lithium battery technology is very, very stable (chemically), and the shelf life can be tremendous with some care. These batteries do have a cycle limit (mid hundreds, typically), so this kind of life is based on the batteries mostly not being used (e.g. mostly sitting in a drawer or on a shelf), and also on them getting some "exercise" every 60 to 120 days (if allowed to self-discharge too far, they will be destroyed). But it's not difficult to get the better part of a decade from a Lithium ion battery that isn't used much, if it's properly cared for. On the other hand, batteries left in laptops that are just plugged in constantly tend to be "toast" with 12 to 24 months, without ever really having been used. It's no clear if the culprit is overcharging or exposure to heat (internal heat from slight overcharging or heat from the rest of the laptop .... video, CPU, hard drive, etc.). But the fact is, just leaving the battery in a laptop all the time while the laptop is plugged in 24x7 does tend (in most but not all models of laptop) to destroy the battery "prematurely". >> 18 months is short. A properly cared for lithium battery can last 10 >> years. Many of these batteries cost $150 to $250. If you want to spend [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > years (or close to) if properly cared for in normal useage? I really > want to read that for education purposes !! >I service laptops and have several stacks of Toshiba 2487 batteries that >have 1995 to 1997 date codes and that will still run a laptop for 2 hours. > >This has been discussed extensively on comp.sys.laptops, and my >experiences are not unique and are backed up by many others as well. Convincing how you said it but I went there and saw EE's who claim otherwise. So whom am I to believe? Does Dell or HP back up your claim? >I service laptops and have several stacks of Toshiba 2487 batteries that >have 1995 to 1997 date codes and that will still run a laptop for 2 hours. In addition to my last post, why would mfg's design batteries to be better if removed when they know most will leave it in? The laptop by design is to be mobile. I can't imagine why your opinion would not be more widespread among geeks. I guess I'll have to research this further later. Believe what you want. You are the one whose batteries were shot in 18 months, and I'm the one with several dozen 10 year old batteries. If you don't mind buying new $200 batteries, who am I to tell you how to get them to last longer. >> I service laptops and have several stacks of Toshiba 2487 batteries that >> have 1995 to 1997 date codes and that will still run a laptop for 2 hours. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > be more widespread among geeks. I guess I'll have to research this > further later. >>I service laptops and have several stacks of Toshiba 2487 batteries that >>have 1995 to 1997 date codes and that will still run a laptop for 2 hours. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > be more widespread among geeks. I guess I'll have to research this > further later. You don't suppose that the mfg's you speak of like to make mucho bucks selling replacement batteries do you? What is the bottom line in any manufactured item? It wouldn't be $$$$ would it? >>>I service laptops and have several stacks of Toshiba 2487 batteries that >>>have 1995 to 1997 date codes and that will still run a laptop for 2 hours. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >selling replacement batteries do you? What is the bottom line in any >manufactured item? It wouldn't be $$$$ would it? No I don't because that's too extreme. If he said 3 to 5 years I might have believed him but not 10 years as NORMAL use. Of course if you remove it and not use it often it will last long (maybe 20 years who knows) but that's NOT normal use. The discussion clearly stated that an {approimately} 10 year life was possible if the battery was NOT used and was removed from the laptop, but exercised periodicially. No one (me included) is suggesting that you can get 10 years of actual daily (or any frequent regular) use of the battery ... you can't, for one thing, these batteries have a "cycle limit" that's only in the mid hundreds. But the point is a very large number of laptop owners (majority? ... I don't know, can't say) don't actually travel with their battery, the laptops sits in one place on a desk for more than 350 days a year. Those people have an option .... they can leave the battery in the laptop, and destroy what is very often a $200 battery, or they can take it out and have the battery for the times when they might want it. >>>> I service laptops and have several stacks of Toshiba 2487 batteries that >>>> have 1995 to 1997 date codes and that will still run a laptop for 2 hours. [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > you remove it and not use it often it will last long (maybe 20 years > who knows) but that's NOT normal use. >The discussion clearly stated that an {approimately} 10 year life was >possible if the battery was NOT used and was removed from the laptop, [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >a $200 battery, or they can take it out and have the battery for the >times when they might want it. Well if you put it in this context above, I can't/won't argue but that wasn't my understanding earlier. I'm sure more people will sleep better tonite with your post <g>. I am one who is now truly looking forward to a deep and restful sleep tonite, after nights of lying awake worrying about whether I was treating my laptop battery properly. ZZZZZZZZ... Ben Myers >>The discussion clearly stated that an {approimately} 10 year life was >>possible if the battery was NOT used and was removed from the laptop, [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >wasn't my understanding earlier. I'm sure more people will sleep >better tonite with your post <g>. >I service laptops and have several stacks of Toshiba 2487 batteries that >have 1995 to 1997 date codes and that will still run a laptop for 2 hours. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >Lithium battery technology is very, very stable (chemically), and the >she Ok, one more post from me.... I just did a quick google search for "normal life of a Li-Ion laptop battery" and this site among many "http://www.goelectronic.com/store/laptop_battery.html "came up. If you read near the bottom of the page, they claim 1.5 to 3 years as normal. Admittedly they were the first site I pulled up but am I to believe the other sites will say different???? And elsewhere I read that taking it in and out did more harm than good???? Don't know about that either so no one has convinced me that you are right or wrong but my experience as I use my laptop says 1.5 years. Their presumption is that the battery is being used. And if it is being used, I don't argue that. But the point is, many if not most laptops don't actually travel .... they sit on a desk in someone's home or office. In which case the battery is not needed. But you might want it some day, and to replace it will cost (in many cases) $200+. So why destroy it for no reason? Hey, it's your battery and your money ...... >> I service laptops and have several stacks of Toshiba 2487 batteries that >> have 1995 to 1997 date codes and that will still run a laptop for 2 hours. [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > you are right or wrong but my experience as I use my laptop says 1.5 > years. >Their presumption is that the battery is being used. And if it is being >used, I don't argue that. But the point is, many if not most laptops [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >Hey, it's your battery and your money ...... Thanks. I might agree with you if I were to leave it removed for a long time but that's not NORMAL useage. But even so and within your own reference you mentioned earlier, not all agree with your method (geeks and electrical engineers). So with that said, maybe I'm not spending more money for batteries. At best, this subject is controversial at present so I think it's foolish to draw conclusions whether my battery is being destroyed by my useage. WOW-- That was a long thread!! Mel >>Their presumption is that the battery is being used. And if it is being >>used, I don't argue that. But the point is, many if not most laptops [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > present so I think it's foolish to draw conclusions whether my battery > is being destroyed by my useage. No! WOW! may be a Microsoft trademark to go with Vista! ... Ben Myers >WOW-- That was a long thread!! > [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] >> present so I think it's foolish to draw conclusions whether my battery >> is being destroyed by my useage. > No! WOW! may be a Microsoft trademark to go with Vista! ... Ben Myers What does "WOW" mean? When associated with Microsoft, the only thing that comes to mind is... "With-Out Worth". I'm sure the Microsoft PR flaks would disagree with that one. Hey, they decided to WOW everybody. We are free to interpret WOW the way we want. I got the latest print copy of Network Computing magazine yesterday. They did a survey of 500 readers, geared to the corporate/enterprise buyers. Vista is a decidedly un-WOW product for companies that consume thousands of computers. It was estimated that it would cost $800 per computer in tangible costs to upgrade hardware to deply Vista. And then we've got the intangibles like re-training corporate drones who are not very computer literate. The consensus is that corporations will buy new systems with Vista pre-installed in some sort of volume maybe 2-3 years from now, and continue with XP Pro in the meantime. Let's see the Microsoft flaks put a spin on that one! ... Ben Myers >> No! WOW! may be a Microsoft trademark to go with Vista! ... Ben Myers > >What does "WOW" mean? When associated with Microsoft, the only thing that >comes to mind is... "With-Out Worth". |
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