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Hardware Forum / Networking / Wireless / September 2008

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Calculating power consumption...

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ericm0009@yahoo.com - 23 Sep 2008 17:52 GMT
Hi,

I am thinking about extending my wireless coverage by adding a WAP
(and a wireless-ethernet bridge) that will be powered by batteries.

The wireless-ethernet bridge will be the client feeding the WAP, so
the WAP can be run as a complete WAP and not a repeater.

The power specs for the bridge and WAP are the same:

INPUT: 100 - 120VAC  (0.5A)
OUTPUT: 5VDC (2.5A)

Stupid question: How do you determine how many watts are actually
used?  Is this simply by multiplying the voltage with the amperage of
the output specs?

Am I adding this up correctly for a 12V battery?

5V x 2.5A = 12.5W

12W x 2 (devices) = 25W

25W / 12V = ~ 2.10 AaH (Amps per hour)

So, say, a 12V 100A (deep cycle) battery should last ~47 hours if
supplying 5VDC (2.5A) continuously?  (Well, somewhat less, because of
inefficiency.)

Then, later on, I could double that amount of time by adding a second
battery and connecting them in parallel.

Am I adding up correctly here?  I would, obviously, be using a DC-DC
converters in place of the power adapters, not a DC-AC inverter with
the power adapters.

Thanks!
DanS - 23 Sep 2008 19:52 GMT
ericm0009@yahoo.com wrote in news:6683bc96-12c4-4d8b-b4c0-2e64f67583a1@
34g2000hsh.googlegroups.com:

> Hi,
>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> INPUT: 100 - 120VAC  (0.5A)
> OUTPUT: 5VDC (2.5A)

These specs are the for the power adapter, not what the unit actually
uses. The only way to know exactly how much is used, is to use a meter
and measure it....and that will then only be an average power
consumption. The unit uses far less in TX mode than while in RX mode.

And yes...power (W) = voltage (V) * current (W)

> Stupid question: How do you determine how many watts are actually
> used?  Is this simply by multiplying the voltage with the amperage of
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
>
> Thanks!
danny burstein - 23 Sep 2008 20:04 GMT
>These specs are the for the power adapter, not what the unit actually
>uses. The only way to know exactly how much is used, is to use a meter
>and measure it....and that will then only be an average power
>consumption. The unit uses far less in TX mode than while in RX mode.

Wouldn't it be the other way around?

(And does a typical access point "power down" when
just sitting there as opposed to actively transferring
big data streams? I really don't know...)

Signature

_____________________________________________________
Knowledge may be power, but communications is the key
            dannyb@panix.com
[to foil spammers, my address has been double rot-13 encoded]

DanS - 23 Sep 2008 22:25 GMT
> In <Xns9B22BFDF155F8thisnthatadelphianet@85.214.90.236> DanS
> <t.h.i.s.n.t.h.a.t@a.d.e.l.p.h.i.a.n.e.t> writes:
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> Wouldn't it be the other way around?

Uh...yeah....it was a long.....long day. Sorry. Boy did I blow that one.
Trying to program rtr's (real rtr's, not consumer gear AP's) that you're
not familiar with really strains the brain.

That is what I meant...TX is much more DC power than RX....DOH !!!!!

You can never go by what the PS says. The PS should always be over-rated
for the device....by 50% of the actual current draw, IMO. We've got a
900mhz DSSS radio that comes with a 1.5A 12v PS and is rated @ 700mA
(which is ~100% over-rated) @ 12V for a full 1W output.

Well I measured it, and in diag keyed mode, as in constant TX, it only
uses ~ 400ma @ 12v.
ericm0009@yahoo.com - 23 Sep 2008 22:47 GMT
On Sep 23, 2:52 pm, DanS <t.h.i.s.n.t.h....@a.d.e.l.p.h.i.a.n.e.t>
wrote:
> ericm0...@yahoo.com wrote in news:6683bc96-12c4-4d8b-b4c0-2e64f67583a1@
> 34g2000hsh.googlegroups.com:
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
>
> And yes...power (W) = voltage (V) * current (W)

Thanks.  That makes sense.  I'll go ahead and measure the actual power
being used.

Jeff straightened me out on the battery.  I didn't realize that the
battery is only good for the first 25 percent.  Ouch!
Jeff Liebermann - 24 Sep 2008 00:41 GMT
>Jeff straightened me out on the battery.  I didn't realize that the
>battery is only good for the first 25 percent.  Ouch!

Well, to be fair, the recommended discharge cuttoff point is all over
the map.  Conservative solar electric installers, that have to
warranty what they sell, will suggest no more than 25% discharge.  AT
that point, the batteries will last almost forever.  Battery vendors,
that want to sell lots of replacement batteries will go so far as to
suggest a 75% discharge.  I won't mention UPS vendors recommendation
as my blood pressure is allready too high.  For a solar electric
system, batteries are probably the 2nd most expensive part of the
puzzle if they have to be replaced every 5 years or so.  

The idea is to extend the battery lifetime, which means you try to
pull down the battery as little as possible.  I know of one system
that has two battery banks.  A small one that gets run down to about
50% and has to be replaced every few years, but is cheap.  Behind
that, a big pile of Trojan cells, that only gets used in the winter
after several consecutive days of darkness.  I think the Trojan cells
are about 20 years old and show no capacity loss.  The junk batteries
are now about 2 years old and probably have anywhere between a few
days and a year to go before they die.

It's also the same with electric hybrids.  Toyota has to warranty
their battery pack for 5+ years, so they don't let it discharge more
than 60%.  Note the LiIon cells can be safely discharged more than
lead-acid cells.

Signature

# Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D Santa Cruz CA 95060
# 831-336-2558            jeffl@comix.santa-cruz.ca.us
# http://802.11junk.com               jeffl@cruzio.com
# http://www.LearnByDestroying.com               AE6KS

Jeff Liebermann - 23 Sep 2008 20:14 GMT
>How do you determine how many watts are actually
>used?

Measure it.  Apply 5.0VDC from a bench type power supply to your
unspecified model WAP.  Measure the current.  The power, in watts, is
the current times the voltage.

>Is this simply by multiplying the voltage with the amperage of
>the output specs?

No.  What you're quoting are the specs on the wall wart power supply.
Those are intentionally over-rated and are always more than the actual
power consumption.

>So, say, a 12V 100A (deep cycle) battery should last ~47 hours if
>supplying 5VDC (2.5A) continuously?  (Well, somewhat less, because of
>inefficiency.)

Nope.  You can't run a deep cycle battery below about 75% capacity
without killing it.  That means you only have about 25% of the battery
capacity available to run the WAP.  
 12 volts * 100 Amp-hrs * 0.25 = 300 watts-hrs
Assuming typical 80% efficiency for a good 12v to 5v DC to DC
inverter, that gives you about 240 watts to burn.

If your WAP draws 8 watts (a good typical first guess), you can run it
for:
  240 watt-hrs / 8 watts = 30 hours
before you need to recharge.

I built a handy spreadsheet for doing the calcs for a solar powered
ham radio repeater.  See:
<http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/rf-calc/solar-repeater-206.xls>
and one for the WRT54G:
<http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/rf-calc/solar-wrt54g-v101.xls>
Juggle the numbers to fit your system.  The basic idea is to size the
solar array so that it can be recharged in less than one day.

Signature

Jeff Liebermann     jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D    http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann     AE6KS    831-336-2558

ericm0009@yahoo.com - 23 Sep 2008 22:45 GMT
> >How do you determine how many watts are actually
> >used?
[quoted text clipped - 33 lines]
> Juggle the numbers to fit your system.  The basic idea is to size the
> solar array so that it can be recharged in less than one day.

Thanks for the wonderful information, Jeff.  Especially the
spreadsheets.  I didn't realize you already crunched the numbers.

Yeah, I'll go ahead and measure it at work.   This is starting to look
more involved and costly than what I thought it would be.   I'm now
thinking I'll take the bridge out and just run the WAP as a
repeater.   It will mainly be for an internet pipe, so that hopefully
won't be too bad.

The WAP that I was thinking about using is a DLink DWL-7100AP since I
have a few of them already, but since this an 802.11a/gb WAP, I'll
probably invest in an 802.11gb only WAP that is compatible to be run
as a repeater with the DWL-7100AP.

Still haven't even gotten to the solar array aspect yet.  I need to
crunch the solar with the battery and see where my breakpoint is going
to be.

Thanks again!
Jeff Liebermann - 24 Sep 2008 00:21 GMT
>Thanks for the wonderful information, Jeff.  Especially the
>spreadsheets.  I didn't realize you already crunched the numbers.

I've built 3 solar powered repeaters and one solar AP.  Two are still
on the air.  It helps to do the calcs first, and then build.

>Yeah, I'll go ahead and measure it at work.   This is starting to look
>more involved and costly than what I thought it would be.

Yep.  There are several construction articles on solar powered
wireless AP's and repeaters.  I'm too lazy to look right now.  If you
look at the photos, the cost of the box, mounting, panels, controller,
wiring, and antennas, far exceeds the cost of the access point. You'll
also run into environmental issues you probably don't want to know
about.  Condensation will rot out the boards.  Outgassing of the
battery acid will really make a mess.  Thieves are everywhere.

There are also ready to play outdoor boxes:
<http://www.hyperlinktech.com/productcenter.aspx?id=14>

>I'm now
>thinking I'll take the bridge out and just run the WAP as a
>repeater.   It will mainly be for an internet pipe, so that hopefully
>won't be too bad.

I hate single channel repeaters.  Details if you want (later).  All of
the repeaters that I've built, that actually worked use TWO radios,
back to back, on different channels.  The mesh mob is starting to get
the clue as even the most reactionary vendors are now supplying
multiple radio mesh nodes (repeaters).

>The WAP that I was thinking about using is a DLink DWL-7100AP since I
>have a few of them already, but since this an 802.11a/gb WAP, I'll
>probably invest in an 802.11gb only WAP that is compatible to be run
>as a repeater with the DWL-7100AP.

Do a quick test and setup your proposed system inside a small room
along with a client radio and a simulated internet server plugged into
the router.  Try it first with just the server, one router or AP, and
a client radio.  No repeaters.  Use JPerf or IPerf for benchmarking.
Then, turn on a repeater or two and watch what happens to the thruput.
The moral is that repeaters work if the end points can't hear each
other.  If they can, the repeater is no better than an interference
source.

>Still haven't even gotten to the solar array aspect yet.  I need to
>crunch the solar with the battery and see where my breakpoint is going
>to be.

So some reading on Home Power Magazine about solar arrays, controls,
sizing, and prices.  I suggest Morningstar controllers.

Signature

# Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D Santa Cruz CA 95060
# 831-336-2558            jeffl@comix.santa-cruz.ca.us
# http://802.11junk.com               jeffl@cruzio.com
# http://www.LearnByDestroying.com               AE6KS

ericm0009@yahoo.com - 24 Sep 2008 15:06 GMT
> >Thanks for the wonderful information, Jeff.  Especially the
> >spreadsheets.  I didn't realize you already crunched the numbers.
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> There are also ready to play outdoor boxes:
> <http://www.hyperlinktech.com/productcenter.aspx?id=14>

Thanks again, Jeff, for all the great info.

I think I am going to step back for a little while before doing this
project.  Instead of just jumping into it, I'll continue to edumacate
myself first.

Thanks!
 
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