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Hardware Forum / PC Hardware / Homebuilt PC / September 2007

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Memory Issue

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Bluenose 637 - 28 Sep 2007 00:45 GMT
Hi all,

I've got my new rig up and going. Asus P5K Deluxe,4 gb Kingston RAM, Nvidia
GTS 8800, WD SATA 2 HDD, SATA 2 RW DVD, SATA 2 DVD, Intel core 2 duo E6850.
Win xp sp2 / Vista 32 dual boot

Got things up and running fine.  But I started getting random CTDs in some
programs and the error message referred to memory issue (could not copy,
etc).  I installed my old 3.5" drive and ran MEMTEST 86.  Let it run all
night and sure enough I had some errors. I could not tell which stick though
so opened up the case and installed the sticks one at a time (total of 4)
and ran MEMTEST 86.  No errors.  So then I took one stick and move it to
each DIMM slot and ran the MEMTEST 86.  No errors.  8 runs total no run less
than 6 hours (I seem to recall more than 15 passes).

The only thing I can think of is that there is a heat issue when I have all
4 sticks in and the cover on.  The memory is "bare" does not have the heat
shields I have had on other memory.  I have checked my MB temps and it never
seems to get above 125F when I am looking and is usually around 110F. My CPU
temp is usually about 100 - 105F under load, sub 100 when idle.  My CPU fan
hangs around 410RPM.  two other fans in the case - one 120mm on back and one
120 mm on top.  Power supply is in seperate compartment with own fan.  Fans
are only 3 prong so I can't see RPMs, but they are always running.  Using
the fan control on the MB.

Do it look like heat or could it be something else I can check.
kony - 28 Sep 2007 01:25 GMT
>Hi all,
>
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>4 sticks in and the cover on.  The memory is "bare" does not have the heat
>shields I have had on other memory.  

Did you increase the default memory voltage in the bios?
Does it feel really hot?  Be sure to ground yourself before
touch-testing, carefully contacting only the epoxy part of
the chip and with very dry finger(s).  However, memory
overheating is not as likely as what I mention below, unless
the system were overclocked and the memory voltage was
manually increased.  On the other hand, one thing you might
try doing if the memory is at stock voltage still is to
raise the voltage one notch, then retest with memtest86+ to
see if this effects the error rate... if it has no effect at
all on the rate, return the memory to default voltage, but
if it does have a significant effect, you might consider
then retesting with the memory voltage raised another notch.
If your motherboard has fine increment voltage adjustments
this may be acceptible, but don't raise the memory voltage
very much, some would say 10% is a conservative maximum
especially without heat spreaders on the modules.

>I have checked my MB temps and it never
>seems to get above 125F when I am looking and is usually around 110F. My CPU
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
>Do it look like heat or could it be something else I can check.

Most often, seeming instability with more modules simply
means the motherboard can't run so many stabily at the same
timings and/or bus speed.  Sometimes it is a matter of the
individual modules having too little margin and replacement
with higher spec'd modules will help.  Other times the
motherboard manufacturer will eventually release a bios that
uses more conservative timings with certain memory or more
modules installed.

For the time being, find out what your memory is spec'd to
use for timings.  Manually set those timings in the bios and
retest with memtest86+ (above you referred only to
"memtest86", be sure to try the "+" version).  If the
manually set timings don't work stabily, try increasing the
timings numbers.  More detail on memory timing settings can
be found with a google search.

If you find it unacceptible to have to suffer a (typically
single-digit percentage memory-)  performance degradation
from using higher timings, what remains is seeking a newer
bios for your motherboard that claims to address *someone's*
memory stability (even a different module, might reflect an
improvement with your modules), or returning the memory for
refund (it is not so likely to make a difference to exchange
the modules you have for the exact same replacement Kingston
modules in general, although rarely Kingston does use
different chips on different modules having the same
Kingston part #).

Unfortunately, if you have ran the system all the while with
the current instable memory configuation, including
installing the operating system(s), it is quite possible you
have some file corruption that could result in the system
remaining instable, and/or data corruption of anything
written to the HDD later, so after you have regained memory
stability it would be prudent to do a clean installation of
the OS again and if you can, abandon any data created (if
stored on another device not subject to corruption from this
instable system, abandon the copy of the data on this system
and restore the data from the other source).
Bluenose 637 - 28 Sep 2007 01:45 GMT
Thanks - First I have not adjusted mem timings so it is at stock value.  It
does feel warm to the touch.

I had forgoetten about the 4 module issue on the MB. I did choose this
memory because on the QVL it was listed as being 4 modual compatable with
this board. I realize that that is not absolute so that could very well be
the issue. Bummer.  This was a good deal on the memory so I bought the 4. I
only get 3.25 addressed.

So the voltages solution would be one alternative.

Could I use just 3 of the sticks? Would the 3 sticks cause an issue?

>>Hi all,
>>
[quoted text clipped - 92 lines]
> instable system, abandon the copy of the data on this system
> and restore the data from the other source).
Conor - 28 Sep 2007 09:32 GMT
> I bought the 4. I  only get 3.25 addressed.

You need to enable the "Memory Hole 15/16M." and it should post a full
4096MB although 32 bit Windows won't show that.

Signature

Conor

I'm not prejudiced. I hate everyone equally.

Bluenose 637 - 28 Sep 2007 23:54 GMT
it does actually post the full 4096.  I don't see it in windows.

>> I bought the 4. I  only get 3.25 addressed.
>
> You need to enable the "Memory Hole 15/16M." and it should post a full
> 4096MB although 32 bit Windows won't show that.
jørgen - 29 Sep 2007 00:08 GMT
> You need to enable the "Memory Hole 15/16M." and it should post a full
> 4096MB although 32 bit Windows won't show that.

It's the other way around, it should be disabled.

If the hole is present, memory addresses in that region is not directed
to the memory controller, but to the IO system
Bluenose 637 - 28 Sep 2007 23:59 GMT
i knotched up the memory voltage one knotch and ran it last night while I
was asleep. 5.5 hours wall time and no errors.  I set it back to default and
ran it while I was at work.  I got memory errors all on test 8.  I think it
started on pass 7 so that was likley more than 5.5 hours. I'll up the
voltage again and run it a bit longer.

I am using the + version, just got lazy in typing

>>Hi all,
>>
[quoted text clipped - 92 lines]
> instable system, abandon the copy of the data on this system
> and restore the data from the other source).
kony - 29 Sep 2007 05:06 GMT
>i knotched up the memory voltage one knotch and ran it last night while I
>was asleep. 5.5 hours wall time and no errors.  I set it back to default and
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
>I am using the + version, just got lazy in typing

Personally, I don't like knowing how much (or little)
stability margin there is.  What I mean is, I am not content
only finding some X MHz at which there are no errors at a
given set of timings and voltage.  I actively seek the peak
MHz the memory bus can run at the same timings and voltage,
until there are errors, and THEN finding that threshold,
will decide if backing down the memory frequency will afford
a comfortable margin, or if I ought to reduce the timings
and/or increase voltage another notch until I see the margin
I want.  That is usually about 5% minimum margin.

When a motherboard and PSU are new, they are at peak
functionality.  Also it is less likely the room (nor the
system, when only running memtest86+) is at peak
temperature, further when a system is new we (hope?) assume
the air passages and fans are free from dust and therefore
it has optimal airflow.  As time goes by, these factors can
occasionally play against system stability.  Normally a good
manufacturer will have engineered enough margin in that we
(should test anyway but often people merely...) assume it's
stable, but I mention these things because you are closer to
a stability threshold than most are.

Personally after you had raised the memory voltage by two
notches, if that weren't enough I would raise the timings
before rasing the voltage any more than that.

Also since the errors will progressively get lower and lower
but not necessarily be eliminated, the fewer errors you see
the longer you should test with memtest86+ to get some
assurance.  If I had an instable system like this I would
test for over 24 hours.
Bluenose 637 - 30 Sep 2007 00:38 GMT
Thanks Kony,

I did the test for around 12 hours with the higher voltages and got several
errors.  I'm thinking about returning the memory and looking for memory that
is more stable with my MB. I don't think heat is the issue now. I think this
is an issue with 4 sticks in the slots.  This memory is supose to be stable
with my MB but it appears that there are still error.  I was able to use it
all day today without any of the CTDs I have been getting, but I'd like to
get an error free system.

>>i knotched up the memory voltage one knotch and ran it last night while I
>>was asleep. 5.5 hours wall time and no errors.  I set it back to default
[quoted text clipped - 38 lines]
> assurance.  If I had an instable system like this I would
> test for over 24 hours.
Paul - 28 Sep 2007 02:15 GMT
> Hi all,
>
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
>
> Do it look like heat or could it be something else I can check.

Bump up Vdimm and try again with memtest86+. Just do a couple passes,
to determine whether the occasional errors are gone.

The real test though, will be with Orthos.

http://sp2004.fre3.com/beta/beta2.htm

   Paul
 
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