 |
 | Home | Contact Us | FAQ | Search & Site Map | Link to Us |
 | Sign In | Join | Other 45 Sites in Network |
| HomeDiscussion GroupsPC HardwareCPUMotherboardsVideo CardsStorageNetworkingPeripheralsBrand Name Systems Related Topics Video GamesWindowsMS Server ProductsMS OfficeMore Topics ... |
Hardware Forum / PC Hardware / Homebuilt PC / June 2007Using an old Sun computer
I've just received an old Sun Sparc station 5 and want to have a play with it cos I've always been into retro computers. I've just looked at it though and don't know where to start. I seem to be missing an awful lot of things that I'd expect to come as standard. I have the system unit and a strange keyboard and mouse that have something like a PS/2 plug but more pins in them. This is my first question since there's only one such connector on the back of the unit. Similarly I don't have a VGA connector so I don't know how I hook up a monitor. I was under the impression these are desktop machines not servers so it must be possible. One of the things that attracted me though was these machines can be run without a monitor to save space using a null modem cable, but I heard something about strange serial ports. What are the issues with these. I don't have a // port either. Finally, and most strangely I don't have a CD ROM drive or even a floppy - there are panels where these can be fitted but they're blanked off. This machine has been used in the past so how did they get the software on to it? Are these machines even worth bothering with considering how strange they appear to be? > I've just received an old Sun Sparc station 5 and want to have a play > with it cos I've always been into retro computers. I've just looked [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > get the software on to it? Are these machines even worth bothering > with considering how strange they appear to be? In terms of newsgroups, there is a "comp.sys.sun" hierarchy, with a set of groups under it. The Sun website seems to need some kind of registration, to use the info on it. At one time, you could use the online manuals to dig up details on their machines. The video connector is high quality, but different than PCs. Inside the machine, you may find sled mounted hard drives, with an SCA (80 pin) SCSI connector. Older machines tend to use SCSI bus for storage. CDROMs came as an external unit, sitting on the SCSI bus. http://techpubs.sgi.com/library/dynaweb_docs/0650/SGI_EndUser/books/Onyx_3K_OG/s gi_html/figures/2-4.13W3.pinouts.gif http://www.cablesdirect.com/search_result4.asp?txtKeyword=IBM+SUN&txtName=IBM+an d+Sun+Products http://cgi.ebay.com/SUN-SPARC-STATION-599-2044-02-4X-EXTERNAL-SCSI-CDROM_W0QQite mZ230069604692QQcmdZViewItem Later machines got more of the trappings of PCs. By today's standards, such a machine will be underpowered (110MHz ?). But as a retro guy, you probably knew that already. Some of those machines, had blistering hot processor upgrades inside them. A first step, would be to clean out the power supply air intake, as they tend to collect dust and hair. Paul >I've just received an old Sun Sparc station 5 and want to have a play >with it cos I've always been into retro computers. I've just looked >at it though and don't know where to start. I seem to be missing an >awful lot of things that I'd expect to come as standard. I have the >system unit and a strange keyboard and mouse that have something like >a PS/2 plug but more pins in them. SUN Keyboard/Mouse pinout: http://pinouts.ru/Inputs/keyboardsun_pinout.shtml > This is my first question since >there's only one such connector on the back of the unit. > >Similarly I don't have a VGA connector so I don't know how I hook up a >monitor. I was under the impression these are desktop machines not >servers so it must be possible. Sun Video pinout: http://pinouts.ru/Video/SunVideo_pinout.shtml >One of the things that attracted me though was these machines can be >run without a monitor to save space using a null modem cable, but I >heard something about strange serial ports. What are the issues with >these. I don't have a // port either. Sun Serial (DB25) pinout: http://pinouts.ru/SerialPorts/serialsun_pinout.shtml Parallel (SUN) pinout: http://pinouts.ru/ParallelPorts/parallelsun_pinout.shtml >Finally, and most strangely I don't have a CD ROM drive or even a >floppy - there are panels where these can be fitted but they're >blanked off. This machine has been used in the past so how did they >get the software on to it? Are these machines even worth bothering >with considering how strange they appear to be? SUN Internal Floppy drive pinout: http://pinouts.ru/Storage/sunfloppy_pinout.shtml SUN AUI (network?) pinout: http://pinouts.ru/Net/sunaui_pinout.shtml Sun Attachment Unit Interface (AUI) connector pinout: http://pinouts.ru/Motherboard/sun_aui_f_pinout.shtml Maybe your machine was a discless workstation that booted over the network? - Franc Zabkar  SignaturePlease remove one 'i' from my address when replying by email. >>I've just received an old Sun Sparc station 5 and want to have a play >>with it cos I've always been into retro computers. I've just looked [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >> This is my first question since >>there's only one such connector on the back of the unit. ISTR (without getting my one out of the garden shed) the mouse connector is on the underside of the keyboard. >>Similarly I don't have a VGA connector so I don't know how I hook up a >>monitor. I was under the impression these are desktop machines not >>servers so it must be possible. I never got this to work, but a null modem cable from the Sun (Franc gives the pinout) into your PC, run up a VT100 emulator and disconnect the Sun keyboard before powering up. It should use its COM1 as the console port. >Sun Video pinout: >http://pinouts.ru/Video/SunVideo_pinout.shtml [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] >>get the software on to it? Are these machines even worth bothering >>with considering how strange they appear to be? Depends on how exciting a life you wish to lead. Probably not. >SUN Internal Floppy drive pinout: >http://pinouts.ru/Storage/sunfloppy_pinout.shtml [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > >- Franc Zabkar SignatureNick Pearson >>>Similarly I don't have a VGA connector so I don't know how I hook up a >>>monitor. I was under the impression these are desktop machines not >>>servers so it must be possible. > I never got this to work, but a null modem cable from the Sun (Franc > gives the pinout) into your PC, run up a VT100 emulator and disconnect > the Sun keyboard before powering up. It should use its COM1 as the > console port. I've done this in the past but my situation was complicated at first by the fact that the laptop I was using had it's serial port disabled and I didn't notice at first. The transmission is at 9600 8N1, and my cable used hardware flow control which meant this was needed in software as well - I'm not sure if it would use XON/XOFF with a regular 3-wire lead. Are you sure you're using a null modem lead (sorry if it sounds obvious). The ports are wired as DTE even though they use female connectors so it's something to check - a gender bender will be needed with an off the shelf null modem cable. -- Andrew Smallshaw andrews@sdf.lonestar.org > >> This is my first question since > >>there's only one such connector on the back of the unit. > > ISTR (without getting my one out of the garden shed) the mouse connector > is on the underside of the keyboard. Oooh - how did I not notice that? Thanks. > >>Similarly I don't have a VGA connector so I don't know how I hook up a > >>monitor. I was under the impression these are desktop machines not [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > the Sun keyboard before powering up. It should use its COM1 as the > console port. That's what I had heard and it sounded a neat idea. Do have any idea what the problem was? I think Id still like to connect it to a monitor though, even if only for a play. From what I've found on it capabilities its going to be a bare box on the network most of the time though. I haven't got the space for another complete set up. <Flangel> > I've just received an old Sun Sparc station 5 and want to have a play > with it cos I've always been into retro computers. I've just looked [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > a PS/2 plug but more pins in them. This is my first question since > there's only one such connector on the back of the unit. The mouse daisychains off the keyboard. If you are right handed it's best to use the right keyboard socket for the mouse and the the left for connecting to the base unit - this is simply to avoid snagged cabling, there's no electrical reason it can't be the other way round. > Similarly I don't have a VGA connector so I don't know how I hook up a > monitor. I was under the impression these are desktop machines not > servers so it must be possible. Older Suns don't use VGA connectors for video but a "13W3" connector capable of slightly better quality. You probably have a framebuffer (graphics card in PC terminology) fitted - look for a D socket with 3 coaxial connectors embedded in it amongst the usual pins. Adapters to VGA are available but the signals are not standard VGA: the monitor must be sync-on-green compatible and multisync to accomodate the different resolutions/refresh rates. If your monitor isn't sync-on-green capable (most aren't) then you'll need to construct a sync separator - drop me a mail for a schematic: it's a single chip solution in most cases. Some machines, however, were bought solely as servers and may not have a framebuffer fitted. It just isn't needed for anything. You should be able to pick up one for a few pounds. > One of the things that attracted me though was these machines can be > run without a monitor to save space using a null modem cable, but I > heard something about strange serial ports. What are the issues with > these. I don't have a // port either. I believe that here you are referring to the two-ports-on-one-socket arrangement. It doesn't apply to the SS5, and even where it does it isn't a problem unless you need the second port, since the first is wired as standard. There is a parallel port, but that _is_ a nonstandard connector. The electronics are Centronics-compatible though. Compatible cables can be difficult to track down for sane prices (<£50). Here in the UK I bought a couple of suitable half pitch to Centronics adapters from CPC www.cpc.co.uk a couple of years ago for about £6-7 a piece. Can't find a part number for them right now. > Finally, and most strangely I don't have a CD ROM drive or even a > floppy - there are panels where these can be fitted but they're > blanked off. This machine has been used in the past so how did they > get the software on to it? Via the network. Netbooting a Sparcstation isn't difficult but set aside a couple of hours to set everything up the first time you do it - once you're familiar with the process it's no more than 10-15 minutes from scratch. Having a Unix machine on the network is a major help since for an SS5 you'll need to set up RARP, tftp and NFS just for the initial install. Those are all standard issue on a Unix box. You'll have to find the bits first to use a Windows machine for the job. Of course, I'm assuming here that you actually have a HDD fitted. Most do, if you don't it can permanently be booted over the network. If instead you want to populate the CD/floppy bays you'll need to consider the case style since some machines can accomodate a standard SCSI CROM while others need a slimline unit. If you want a floppy as well you will need a specific Sun drive - the machines use motor-eject floppies similar to those on a Mac instead of PC-style units. > Are these machines even worth bothering > with considering how strange they appear to be? Depends on what you want them for. For a general purpose machine they're underpowered by modern standards since it will run at (at most) 170MHz, although that's a SPARC and faster than an x86 of equivalent speed. They do, however, make great firewalls, P2P downloaders, etc and you get a useful amount of capability for next to no money. The ability to run completely headless makes them attractive for those purposes. My only real complaint about them in that context is that they have very noisy hard drives - it isn't a sign of impending failure, they are just naturally noisy. Upgrading the drive may be an idea. Personally, I like using one for interactive use - they have a lot of subtle refinements, e.g. the power switch is safely located at the back of the unit - can you honestly say you've never hit the switch by accident? The built in speaker gives better fidelity than many external speakers even if it is a mono channel. But the killer feature for me is the Sun Type 4 keyboard - wonderful action, right amount of rake, and lots of useful keys for window management and so on. Sometimes it's the simplest things that make all the difference. -- Andrew Smallshaw andrews@sdf.lonestar.org > The mouse daisychains off the keyboard. If you are right handed > it's best to use the right keyboard socket for the mouse and the > the left for connecting to the base unit - this is simply to avoid > snagged cabling, there's no electrical reason it can't be the other > way round. Someone else mentioned that. Thanks. I feel pretty dumb now. > > Similarly I don't have a VGA connector so I don't know how I hook up a > > monitor. I was under the impression these are desktop machines not [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > a sync separator - drop me a mail for a schematic: it's a single > chip solution in most cases. I don't understand this. I've found the special monitor on the back of the unit and the adapters you describe are on ebay. How come you say I might need something else as well? How do I find out? > I believe that here you are referring to the two-ports-on-one-socket > arrangement. It doesn't apply to the SS5, and even where it does > it isn't a problem unless you need the second port, since the first > is wired as standard. The sorts out what I was asking yes. > There is a parallel port, but that _is_ a nonstandard connector. > The electronics are Centronics-compatible though. Compatible cables > can be difficult to track down for sane prices (<?50). Here in > the UK I bought a couple of suitable half pitch to Centronics > adapters from CPCwww.cpc.co.uka couple of years ago for about > ?6-7 a piece. Can't find a part number for them right now. I wasn't particularly bothered about the // port but it occurs to me if I'm going to use it as a firewall/downloader (basically always on) it would make a good print server. What are the connectors/adapters called? I'll see if I can find them myself. > > Finally, and most strangely I don't have a CD ROM drive or even a > > floppy - there are panels where these can be fitted but they're [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > have a HDD fitted. Most do, if you don't it can permanently be > booted over the network. You make netbooting sounds complicated. I take it that is so? I'm thinking off hooking up a CD ROM to install from if so. > If instead you want to populate the CD/floppy bays you'll need to > consider the case style since some machines can accomodate a standard > SCSI CROM while others need a slimline unit. If you want a floppy > as well you will need a specific Sun drive - the machines use > motor-eject floppies similar to those on a Mac instead of PC-style > units. How can I tell whether a standard drive fits? Franc mentioned using an external drive which sounds a good plan if I need a special drive. > > Are these machines even worth bothering > > with considering how strange they appear to be? [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > management and so on. Sometimes it's the simplest things that make > all the difference. Mine has a type 5 keyboard from what I can tell. <Flangel> > I don't understand this. I've found the special monitor on the back > of the unit and the adapters you describe are on ebay. How come you > say I might need something else as well? How do I find out? Sorry, I meant I had found the connector. I don't have a monitor for it. <Flangel> > I don't understand this. I've found the special monitor on the back > of the unit and the adapters you describe are on ebay. How come you > say I might need something else as well? How do I find out? The signals are different formats. VGA basically uses five interesting wires to transmit image data - there are others but we don't need to consider them here. You have one wire each for red, green and blue, plus one wire each for horizontal and vertical sync signals. A Sun framebuffer combines the two sync signals into one to give a composite sync, and then instead of using a separate wire, sends this along with the green image data. The adapters you refer to are passive units, simply connecting one pin on one socket to another pin on the other. There's no electronics in there to seperate out the sync signals as expected by most PC monitors. Some can take a sync-on-green image, most can't (FWIW Iiyama monitors usually can). Have a look in your monitor's manual to see if if mentions it, but don't be surprised if the issue isn't mentioned at all. In that case there is no substitute for trying it - if it can't sync on green you will typically get an image rapidily scrolling upwards or downwards. Some older monitors (~15 years or so) can actually be damaged by this, but it's pretty unlikely in the real world. > I wasn't particularly bothered about the // port but it occurs to me > if I'm going to use it as a firewall/downloader (basically always on) > it would make a good print server. What are the connectors/adapters > called? I'll see if I can find them myself. The only name I've seen them described as is "half pitch Centronics". I managed to find them in CPC's catalogue but they are listed as no longer manufactured on the website. > You make netbooting sounds complicated. I take it that is so? I'm > thinking off hooking up a CD ROM to install from if so. There are many excellent guides on the web to netbooting. I'm not going to go into it here since it isn't straightforward, but as I said, if you set aside a couple of hours for the first time you do it you should be able to sort it out, even headless. > How can I tell whether a standard drive fits? Franc mentioned using > an external drive which sounds a good plan if I need a special drive. There are two casing styles that affect whether a standard CDROM (or anything else) fits in or you need a special slimline version. It's diffilcult to explain in text but the drive bay cover on later models is taller and encroaches into the space usually taken by the lid - these are the version that take standard drives. I've put a diagram up at http://andrews.freeshell.org/news/20070612.achh.gif which hopefully illustrates the difference. SignatureAndrew Smallshaw andrews@sdf.lonestar.org > The adapters you refer to are passive units, simply connecting one > pin on one socket to another pin on the other. There's no electronics [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > years or so) can actually be damaged by this, but it's pretty > unlikely in the real world. You talked of a convertor that you can make for this difference in signals. I've got a null modem connection working now but would like a monitor? Where is the deisgn? > > How can I tell whether a standard drive fits? Franc mentioned using > > an external drive which sounds a good plan if I need a special drive. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > put a diagram up athttp://andrews.freeshell.org/news/20070612.achh.gif > which hopefully illustrates the difference. Thanks. It looks like I can use at least a standard CD ROM. Does it have to be a CD ROM or can it be a DVD or CD-RW instead? > You talked of a convertor that you can make for this difference in > signals. I've got a null modem connection working now but would like > a monitor? Where is the deisgn? It isn't up anywhere if that's what you mean. I've built such a converter in the past based on an LM1881 chip - there are other similar designs out there on the net (Google is your friend). I'll have a look round over the weekend and see if I can dig my design up. ISTR it's slightly more refined than many of the designs up on the web. > Thanks. It looks like I can use at least a standard CD ROM. Does it > have to be a CD ROM or can it be a DVD or CD-RW instead? Can be pretty much any SCSI device that will fit the bay. CD, DVD, even a tape drive if you so want. SignatureAndrew Smallshaw andrews@sdf.lonestar.org > I've just received an old Sun Sparc station 5 and want to have a play > with it cos I've always been into retro computers. I've just looked [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > a PS/2 plug but more pins in them. This is my first question since > there's only one such connector on the back of the unit. IIRC, unlike a regular PS/2 setup, on a Sun, the mouse plugs into the keyboard, and then the keyboard plugs into the back of the Sparcstation. > Similarly I don't have a VGA connector so I don't know how I hook up a > monitor. I was under the impression these are desktop machines not > servers so it must be possible. There's an adapter, "13W3 to VGA/SVGA" or some such. I still see them on ebay. However, not all models of that era can drive a VGA monitor, so you should need to check before buying one. If you use the serial port, you won't need a VGA monitor. > One of the things that attracted me though was these machines can be > run without a monitor to save space using a null modem cable, but I > heard something about strange serial ports. What are the issues with > these. I don't have a // port either. The single serial port has pinouts for both A and B ports. You don't need to know about this unless you need to use port B. See http://www.obsolyte.com/sunFAQ/serial/ > Finally, and most strangely I don't have a CD ROM drive or even a > floppy - there are panels where these can be fitted but they're > blanked off. This machine has been used in the past so how did they > get the software on to it? Are these machines even worth bothering > with considering how strange they appear to be? Most sparc desktops of that era didn't come with internal cdroms. There were external SCSI cdrom units you could plug into the back of the sparcstation. If you're lucky, it will already have some version of Solaris already installed, and you can simply put a terminal on the serial port and it'll boot. If it doesn't, I'd say it's not worth the cost of parts to get it going. Best of luck... Losher > I've just received an old Sun Sparc station 5 and want to have a play > with it cos I've always been into retro computers. I've just looked [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > get the software on to it? Are these machines even worth bothering > with considering how strange they appear to be? Well, on the internet you can find plenty of infos. First, you need a Sun keyboard, and a Sun mouse, the mouse will plug directly into the keyboard, like Apples do. Second, the monitor can be attached to the 13W3 graphics card, it's of the same dimensions of a 25pin parallel port but it has got three large pin (R-G-B). If you haven't any compatible monitor, you can attach a VT100 compatible terminal to the serial port of the workstation (which is a standard one, i hope), or, if you haven't got one, you can attach it to your Windows\Linux computer and run a VT100 emulator for your OS. It's really strange that this thing haven't got even a floppy, are you sure this thing wasn't used for parts ? Look for an SCSI hard drive.. it will also have a nice fan to leave it fresh :) byex > I've just received an old Sun Sparc station 5 and want to have a play > with it cos I've always been into retro computers. I've just looked If you can't get it running, you could mount a modern motherboard in the case and impress your friends when you fire it up. I have a IBM PS2 case I use with a AMD 3200 system inside. Tinker > awful lot of things that I'd expect to come as standard. I have the > system unit and a strange keyboard and mouse that have something like > a PS/2 plug but more pins in them. This is my first question since > there's only one such connector on the back of the unit. Plug the keyboard into the system and mouse into the keyboard (flip it and you'll se a connector). > Similarly I don't have a VGA connector so I don't know how I hook up a > monitor. I was under the impression these are desktop machines not > servers so it must be possible. It uses a 13W3 connector that can be converted to 15pin VGA. Your other option is to buy a converter on EBay. > One of the things that attracted me though was these machines can be > run without a monitor to save space using a null modem cable, but I > heard something about strange serial ports. What are the issues with > these. I don't have a // port either. // is a parallel port :) > Finally, and most strangely I don't have a CD ROM drive or even a > floppy - there are panels where these can be fitted but they're > blanked off. Boot it over network. Also, you could find any old SCSI 50 pin CD-ROM/Recorder. I believe they require the 512B block size ones for booting. > This machine has been used in the past so how did they > get the software on to it? Are these machines even worth bothering > with considering how strange they appear to be? They are great. I own a SS5, SS20 and ultra 1 and they are awesome :) SignatureAnd it is written that the gaming of man will die and rest silent for two years. But on the 85. year of 20. century it shall rise again. And its triumphant return shall be heralded by two great plumbers and thou will know gaming has been born again -- Tim Buckley |
Reply to this Message |
 Sign In
 Join
 My Latest Posts My Monitored Threads My Blog My Photo Gallery My Profile My Homepage Start New Thread Enable EMail Alerts Rate this Thread
|
©2010 Advenet LLC Privacy Policy - Terms of Use
This website includes both content owned or controlled by Advenet as well as content owned or controlled by third parties.