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Hardware Forum / PC Hardware / Homebuilt PC / November 2008

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I need your advice - new build: fans and lights, "no signal", no post beep

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ToolPackinMama - 21 Nov 2008 01:48 GMT
* ABIT AX78 AM2+/AM2 AMD 770 ATX AMD Motherboard
* AMD Phenom 8450 Toliman 2.1GHz Socket AM2+ 95W Triple-Core Processor
Model HD8450WCGHBOX - Retail
* BFG Tech BFGE88512GTSE GeForce 8800GTS (G92) 512MB 256-bit GDDR3 PCI
Express 2.0 x16 HDCP Ready SLI Supported Video Card
* Patriot Extreme Performance 2GB (2 x 1GB) 240-Pin DDR2 SDRAM DDR2 1066
(PC2 8500) Dual Channel Kit Desktop Memory
* Seagate Barracuda ES.2 ST3250310NS 250GB 7200 RPM SATA 3.0Gb/s Hard Drive
* Antec Earthwatts 500 PSU
* DVD-WR
* FDD

(USB KB and mouse.)

I try to boot and all fans and lights come on.  Post code on MB is "FF",
which as far as I know means fully functional.  Monitor says "No
signal".  No post beep, no drives responding.

I have tried reseating the RAM, and the video card.  I have tried
substituting an old ATI PCI-E video card.  The CRT monitor is known to
be good and is connected properly.

What should I be looking at here?
John Doe - 21 Nov 2008 03:41 GMT
ToolPackinMama <philnblanc@comcast.net> wrote:

> Monitor says "No signal".  No post beep, no drives responding.
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> What should I be looking at here?

Is there a BIOS setting for initializing monitor types (like the old
PCI/AGP)?

The monitor cable?
John Doe - 21 Nov 2008 04:00 GMT
http://www.uabit.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=32&Itemid=48&page
=1&model=408


Do you have CrossFireX disabled?
Does the video card work in only one slot?
Dave - 21 Nov 2008 05:06 GMT
> http://www.uabit.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=32&Itemid=48&page
=1&model=408

>
> Do you have CrossFireX disabled?

Is there a jumper for that?  He's not getting to the BIOS setup screens with
no video.

> Does the video card work in only one slot?
John Doe - 21 Nov 2008 05:12 GMT
>> Do you have CrossFireX disabled?
>
> Is there a jumper for that?  He's not getting to the BIOS setup
> screens with no video.

No she isn't... good point.
I guess that also rules out trying to flash the BIOS.
ToolPackinMama - 21 Nov 2008 06:49 GMT
>> http://www.uabit.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=32&Itemid=48&page
=1&model=408
 
>>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
>> Does the video card work in only one slot?

No video.  No workee.
Paul - 21 Nov 2008 08:32 GMT
>>> http://www.uabit.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=32&Itemid=48&page
=1&model=408
 
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> No video.  No workee.

Is the ATX12V 2x2 power connector installed ? In section 1.6 of
the manual, there is a picture of how a 2x2 should look, when plugged
into the 2x4. Verify your yellow wires (+12V) are oriented the
same way as the picture in the manual. (I'm using the downloadable
manual from the web site.)

You cannot get a POST beep unless the processor is powered.

Also, the PCI Port 80 POST display (two digit display), will rest
at 0xFF or 0x00 at powerup (hardware-wise, it has to have
some known initial value). If the processor is not functional,
the code will stay at that value. So rather than "FF" meaning
Fully Functional, it means Function Frozen :-)

In the distant past, when an couple models of Antec supply,
were connected to a number of different Asus motherboards,
the Vcore regulator would shut down, due to a timing problem.
I didn't get a full explanation at the time, as to what
the exact reason was. But it almost seemed the Vcore was
shutting down on overcurrent, because it was taking so long
for the 12V rail to reach full voltage. So that is another
failure mechanism, only with no feedback other than that a
different brand of ATX supply would work OK.

There is also a small possibility of a bad processor. In
which case, swapping something like a Sempron or other
lightweight substitute, might identify what is broken.

Pulling the RAM, may give the BIOS a chance to start. I think
I've had one motherboard that was silenced, by a stick of
RAM that was bad below 640K. You'd get a beep code
with no RAM present, and the POST display may advance past 0xFF.
That tells you the processor is running.

In the reviews here, someone installed a 9850 and the board
worked OK. Someone else installed an X2 6400+ and the Vcore
regulator went up in smoke (see ref to "PWM"). There was an
article on Anandtech, where they ruined a few AM2 boards before
figuring out the boards were limited to 95W processors. There
is no CPU Support chart that I could find on the Abit site,
so no way to see what the manufacturer claims. The short form
spec on the Abit site suggests the board takes Phenoms, but
whether it takes the top end ones, is something you normally
resolve by looking at their detailed "tested" list.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductReview.aspx?Item=13-127-046&SortField=0&Sum
maryType=0&Pagesize=100&SelectedRating=-1&VideoOnlyMark=False&Page=1


(There is a manual link on this page.)
http://www.abit.com.tw/page/en/motherboard/motherboard_detail.php?pMODEL_NAME=AX
78&fMTYPE=Socket%20AM2


ftp://ftp.abit.com.tw/pub/download//manual/english/ax78_v100.zip

After that nasty incident, Asus responded by boasting about
the newer boards they made, rated at 140W. Since many
manufacturers made substandard boards in the same "wave"
of product releases, I have to conclude AMD told them to
do it (make lightweight Vcore regulators). Later
boards corrected this stupid idea. This is Asus cleaning
up their act.

http://event.asus.com/mb/140w/

When you find an AM2+ board, with 4 phases, the actual phase
configuration is 3+1. On an AM2+, like a Phenom, the core
is powered by three phases, and the memory controller interface is
powered by the remaining phase. It means effectively, that
most of the power is coming from three phases, which is why
these things can fry. (Yes, there is a regulator next to the RAM,
but that powers the RAM sticks. The memory controller on the
processor, has its own supply, and the phase is located
in the Vcore area on the motherboard.)

http://c1.neweggimages.com/NeweggImage/productimage/13-127-046-05.jpg

As far as i know, Abit (UAbit) is stopping motherboard production
at the end of the calendar year. Based on the comments in that
Newegg listing, parts of the company were already broken
(poor tech support, no rebate delivered). So the writing is
on the wall. You could well be looking at the purchase of
another board, if it turns out to be a motherboard problem.
UAbit will still be around, just not making motherboards.
While there is a promise of warranty support for three years,
if you cannot get through to them, that would be hard to arrange
(some companies do stuff like that, "pull a paper bag over their
heads" so they cannot hear from users).

http://channel.hexus.net/content/item.php?item=15225

Good luck,
   Paul
ToolPackinMama - 21 Nov 2008 21:42 GMT
> Is the ATX12V 2x2 power connector installed ? In section 1.6 of
> the manual, there is a picture of how a 2x2 should look, when plugged
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> You cannot get a POST beep unless the processor is powered.

OK, I thought not.  That is all very helpful.
Dave - 21 Nov 2008 04:16 GMT
>* ABIT AX78 AM2+/AM2 AMD 770 ATX AMD Motherboard
> * AMD Phenom 8450 Toliman 2.1GHz Socket AM2+ 95W Triple-Core Processor
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
>
> What should I be looking at here?

Bad power supply, bad motherboard, or bad CPU or improperly installed CPU.
In that specific order.

Fans and lights will come on when the power supply is active.  But to boot,
several things need to happen after that point.  Power supply needs to send
power ok to CPU through mainboard.  CPU then needs to start POST, from
mainboard BIOS.  If initial POST passes OK, then video card is initialized.
Then you start getting video and POST continues.  If POST finishes with no
errors, your CPU looks for an operating system, usually from the optical
drive or hard drive (whatever the boot sequence is in BIOS setup menus)

No POST beep would mean that POST is not running, or your mainboard speaker
is disconnected.  Did you hook up a speaker?  Does your mainboard have a
built-in speaker?

Stupid question but...is your FDD light stuck on?  If so, disconnect your
floppy drive (both cables) then try to boot again.

But with JUST the information you posted so far, I'd say bad power supply,
or you missed a connection between mainboard and power supply.  There should
be two connections between power supply and mainboard.  Not knowing that
specific mainboard, I'm GUESSING you need a 24-pin connection AND an 8-pin
connection to the mainboard from the power supply.   -Dave
ToolPackinMama - 21 Nov 2008 06:49 GMT
> But with JUST the information you posted so far, I'd say bad power
> supply,

New power supply

or you missed a connection between mainboard and power supply.

Nope

> There should be two connections between power supply and mainboard.  Not
> knowing that specific mainboard, I'm GUESSING you need a 24-pin
> connection AND an 8-pin connection to the mainboard from the power
> supply.  

Yes and both are properly connected
Dave - 21 Nov 2008 13:01 GMT
>> But with JUST the information you posted so far, I'd say bad power
>> supply,
>
> New power supply

DOA?  Pretty common, unfortunately.  I wouldn't rule out the power supply
until you try a different one that is "known good", and at least 500W, with
the proper connectors (no adapter required).

I'm still leaning toward the power supply.  Next suspect would be the
mainboard.  But power supply is more likely.  -Dave
westom1@gmail.com - 21 Nov 2008 19:53 GMT
> New power supply

  Does not matter.  It is a power supply 'system' - not just a power
supply.  Whereas people such as Paul provided useful information,
still, until you establish the integrity of that power supply
'system', everything else is wasted effort.

 Fans can spin and lights light - and the supply 'system' can still
be completely defective.  Only way to know is a 3.5 digit multimeter
(or else $thousands in other test equipment).  In your case, the most
important numbers from a less than 2 minute procedure are on any one
purple, red, orange, and yellow wires from the power supply.  These
numbers must exceed 3.23, 4.87, and 11.7.  Posting those numbers here
may result in further useful information.

 Do you want more 'it could be this or could be that' answers?
Useful answers would say ‘this is the problem' or 'that is completely
good; move on to other suspects.  After all this, you still do not
even know what is good.  That means no useful labor has been
performed.

 Even 'new' says nothing about your existing supply.  A supply that
works in one system can be defective in another.  Worse, a defective
supply can also boot a computer.  It is a 'system' - not just the
supply.  Above is how to make progress and get the knowledgeable to
provide more useful replies.  Until the supply system is known
'definitively good', then testing and diagnosising other parts is
complicated or futile.  Verify a power 'system' integrity before
moving on to other suspects.  Currently, you don't know of anything
that is defintively good. By now, you should have some items on that
list to have accomplished anything.  Get the meter.
Dave - 21 Nov 2008 20:33 GMT
On Nov 21, 1:49 am, ToolPackinMama <philnbl...@comcast.net> wrote:
> New power supply

>   Does not matter.  It is a power supply 'system' - not just a power
>supply.  Whereas people such as Paul provided useful information,
>still, until you establish the integrity of that power supply
>'system', everything else is wasted effort.

>  Fans can spin and lights light - and the supply 'system' can still
>be completely defective.  Only way to know is a 3.5 digit multimeter
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>numbers must exceed 3.23, 4.87, and 11.7.  Posting those numbers here
>may result in further useful information.

Just keep in mind (and this is why I advise people NOT to test with a
multimeter/voltmeter) that 90% or more of DEFECTIVE power supplies will test
GOOD with a multimeter.  That's because a (GOOD!) power supply doesn't just
provide stable DC voltage for a fraction of a second...or a few seconds, or
even a few MINUTES.  So any reading you take with a multimeter will only
tell you that the power supply is not dead.  Which is something the OP
already knows.  That is, the OP already knows that the power supply isn't
totally dead.  But the OP doesn't know that the power supply is good.  And,
if the OP checks the outputs of the power supply with a multimeter, then the
OP can NOT conclude (based on the readings on the multimeter) that the power
supply is good.

Without buying thousands of dollars of test equipment (referenced earlier),
the best way to test a suspect power supply is to replace it with a known
good power supply.  Using a multimeter before swapping the power supply is
like driving from San Diego to Las Vegas by way of Dallas.  You likely won't
learn anything, and you are wasting time.   -Dave
westom1@gmail.com - 22 Nov 2008 11:21 GMT
> Just keep in mind (and this is why I advise people NOT to test with a
> multimeter/voltmeter) that 90% or more of DEFECTIVE power supplies will test
> GOOD with a multimeter.  That's because a (GOOD!) power supply doesn't just
> provide stable DC voltage for a fraction of a second...or a few seconds, or
> even a few MINUTES.  So any reading you take with a multimeter will only
> tell you that the power supply is not dead.

 Meanwhile an engineer who even designed power supplies says
otherwise.  Dave’s only recommendation is to keep replacing things
until something works.  Circuits such as power supply filters and
other specifications mean his mythical power drop cannot (and does
not) happen.  But then Dave has no solution other than to keep
replacing parts on “it could be this or could be that” speculations.
Dave fears what he does not understand such as multimeters.   We
sometimes get a tech who does that same thing.  Either he learns how
to solve problems or he is quickly unemployed (as Dave would be).

 A multimeter is the only tool (other than $thousand equipment) that
can report a power supply - definitively.  How many others only post
speculation or personal attacks rather than a solution?  "It might be
this or might be that" is called shotgunning.  If does not work as
demonstrated by the next sentence.

Normal is for a computer to boot with a defective power supply.  And
normal is for the meter to identify that same supply as defective.
How would I know that?  Our techs routinely demonstrated reality using
a multimeter.  Sometimes a complete system failure is averted by
identifying a slowly getting worse power supply.  Only the meter could
identify the defect.  After all, a computer may still boot with a
defective supply.

 How important is a meter?  It is a first tool that even an auto
mechanic students get and use.  Even car mechanics need a meter to
find and fix simple problems.  Even auto mechanics would quickly be
unemployed if they used Dave’s diagnostic recommendations.

 Until the many components of the power supply ‘system’ are verified
(a minute of labor), then no other labor will be productive – generate
‘definitive’ answers.   Yes, other good parts can act defective if a
power supply system is not first identified.  Ie. Paul’s ‘pull the
ram’ beep test.

 Ignore the insults and claims based only in 'it could be this'
logic.  Get the meter for replies from the minority who actually know
how computers work.
John Doe - 22 Nov 2008 14:24 GMT
westom1 gmail.com wrote:
> "Dave" <no... nohow.not> wrote:

>> Just keep in mind (and this is why I advise people NOT to test
>> with a multimeter/voltmeter) that 90% or more of DEFECTIVE power
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> Meanwhile an engineer who even designed power supplies says
> otherwise.  

You misspelled "a blabbering idiot like Tom who doesn't even know
how surge suppressors work but pretends to be a design engineer".

> Dave's only recommendation is to keep replacing things until
> something works.  

Intelligently swapping parts is a good way to troubleshoot a modular
device like a personal computer, Tom.

> But then Dave has no solution other than to keep replacing parts
> on "it could be this or could be that" speculations. Dave fears
> what he does not understand such as multimeters.   We sometimes
> get a tech who does that same thing.  Either he learns how to
> solve problems or he is quickly unemployed (as Dave would be).

Something similar happens here on USENET... Tom... but you keep
coming back.

> A multimeter is the only tool (other than $thousand equipment)
> that can report a power supply - definitively.  How many others
> only post speculation or personal attacks rather than a solution?

That's because you are a hellbent troll who searches USENET for your
pet peeves (example "power supply" and "surge suppressor") and then
jumps into the group to spam your warped ideas, Tom.

> "It might be this or might be that" is called shotgunning.  

Intelligently swapping parts is a well accepted troubleshooting
method around here, Tom.

> Normal is for a computer to boot with a defective power supply.
> And normal is for the meter to identify that same supply as
> defective.

Average users should not be poking around inside of a live computer
with metal probes.

> How would I know that?  

How you would know anything is a mystery, Tom.

> Our techs routinely demonstrated reality using a multimeter.  

I invented a voltmeter. Besides being a nym-shifting troll
pretending to be an engineer and spreading weird ideas here on
USENET, what exactly are you Tom?

> Path: nlpi102-int.nbdc.sbc.com!nlpi062.nbdc.sbc.com!prodigy.com!nlpi057.nbdc.sbc.com!prodigy.net!news.glorb.com!news2!postnews.google.com!x8g2000yqk.googlegroups.com!not-for-mail
> From: westom1 gmail.com
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
> Xref: prodigy.net alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt:513517
> X-Received-Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2008 06:21:54 EST (nlpi102-int.nbdc.sbc.com)
John Doe - 21 Nov 2008 23:56 GMT
westom1 gmail.com wrote:

>> New power supply
>
> Does not matter.  It is a power supply 'system' - not just a power
> supply.  

We refer to it as a "power supply".

> Get the meter.

Hello w_tom.

See also:
Google Groups
w_tom
westom1 gmail.com

> Path: flpi142.ffdc.sbc.com!nlpi062.nbdc.sbc.com!prodigy.com!nlpi057.nbdc.sbc.com!prodigy.net!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!postnews.google.com!x14g2000yqk.googlegroups.com!not-for-mail
> From: westom1 gmail.com
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
> Xref: prodigy.net alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt:513496
> X-Received-Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2008 14:54:22 EST (flpi142.ffdc.sbc.com)
Mike Tomlinson - 21 Nov 2008 07:51 GMT
>I try to boot and all fans and lights come on.  Post code on MB is "FF",
>which as far as I know means fully functional.

Does this go through a sequence of other numbers before reaching FF?  If
not (it goes straight to FF and stays there as soon as you power up),
the CPU is not running.  

Possibilities: pretty much anything.  Take the machine down to bare
bones (mobo, cpu, one video card, one memory stick). If it still won't
boot, take the memory out and power up - does it beep?  If not, CPU or
mobo are faulty.

One last thought - the "clear CMOS" jumper isn't in the clear position?

Signature

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(")_(")

Dave - 21 Nov 2008 13:02 GMT
> Possibilities: pretty much anything.  Take the machine down to bare
> bones (mobo, cpu, one video card, one memory stick). If it still won't
> boot, take the memory out and power up - does it beep?  If not, CPU or
> mobo are faulty.

Or power supply is bad.  (more likely)

> One last thought - the "clear CMOS" jumper isn't in the clear position?

Good one.  -Dave
ToolPackinMama - 21 Nov 2008 21:41 GMT
>> I try to boot and all fans and lights come on.  Post code on MB is "FF",
>> which as far as I know means fully functional.
>
> Does this go through a sequence of other numbers before reaching FF?  If
> not (it goes straight to FF and stays there as soon as you power up),
> the CPU is not running.  

OK I did install the CPU double triple extra carefully, because I don't
ever want to be guilty of not seating/installing it properly.  I used
the included heatsink/fan which comes with heatsink goo already on it.

The CPU was firmly, properly in place and latched down... I CHECKED, I'M
VERY CAREFUL...the heatsink/fan installed without any complications.

Later, after I read some comments here, I pulled the machine apart and
when I went to lift the heatsink off, the CPU came with it.  It came
away easily, I wasn't violent. Stuck fast together - and the ZIF latch
is still down in locked position.

I thought "Oh!  That can't be good!"
Matt - 21 Nov 2008 21:48 GMT
>>> I try to boot and all fans and lights come on.  Post code on MB is
>>> "FF", which as far as I know means fully functional.
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
>
> I thought "Oh!  That can't be good!"

Nothing wrong with that unless you bent some pins.  But if you do want
to remove the HSF from the CPU, maybe you should try twisting it off
instead of pulling straight up.
ToolPackinMama - 23 Nov 2008 01:46 GMT
>> Later, after I read some comments here, I pulled the machine apart and
>> when I went to lift the heatsink off, the CPU came with it.  It came
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> to remove the HSF from the CPU, maybe you should try twisting it off
> instead of pulling straight up.

:)
Matt - 23 Nov 2008 15:25 GMT
>>> Later, after I read some comments here, I pulled the machine apart
>>> and when I went to lift the heatsink off, the CPU came with it.  It
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> :)

Of course you have to be careful so you don't do any harm.  :-|
ToolPackinMama - 23 Nov 2008 17:56 GMT
> Of course you have to be careful so you don't do any harm.  :-|

Now you tell me!  ;)
Matt - 23 Nov 2008 19:31 GMT
>> Of course you have to be careful so you don't do any harm.  :-|
>
> Now you tell me!  ;)

Well, I'm expecting you've had a lot of experience (besides common
sense) regarding what could cause harm.  Just have some respect for the
thing, and we'll be fine.  :-)
westom1@gmail.com - 24 Nov 2008 00:45 GMT
> Well, I'm expecting you've had a lot of experience (besides common
> sense) regarding what could cause harm.

 Of course, since a CPU heatsink is not even on a list of suspects,
then there was no reason to remove it.  Now the problem may be
exponentially complicated by making changes only on speculation.
Mike Tomlinson - 24 Nov 2008 08:22 GMT
In article <9696b1d9-f165-46a8-9e7d-f09337394db2@d23g2000yqc.googlegroup
s.com>, westom1@gmail.com writes

>  Of course, since a CPU heatsink is not even on a list of suspects,
>then there was no reason to remove it.

Since the heatsink has to be removed to check that the CPU is correctly
seated in the socket, you are yet again wrong.

You must be very, very stupid to believe that the purpose of removing
the heatsink is to check the heatsink itself.

Do you know anything at all about building and diagnosing modern PCs? *

Signature

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John Doe - 24 Nov 2008 16:09 GMT
> googlegroups.com, westom1@gmail.com writes

...

> Do you know anything at all about building and diagnosing modern PCs?

Tom found this thread in a USENET archive (Google Groups) search for
"PSU" "power supply" or whatever. To spread his silly ideas about power
supplies and surge suppressors on USENET is the only reason he's here.
Maybe he's trying to promote something, or maybe there isn't any normal
reason. It's a mystery.
ToolPackinMama - 24 Nov 2008 17:27 GMT
FWIW, I RMA'd the motherboard.  Defective CPU socket latch.  Thing
couldn't securely hold the weight of the CPU/Heatsink when the machine
was upright.
ToolPackinMama - 24 Nov 2008 21:25 GMT
FWIW, I RMA'd the Abit board and replaced it with an MSI equivalent.
The new machine is up and running - no problems, booted first try.

Thanks for the info, ideas, and moral support.
Mike Tomlinson - 25 Nov 2008 04:13 GMT
>Tom found this thread in a USENET archive (Google Groups) search for
>"PSU" "power supply" or whatever. To spread his silly ideas about power
>supplies and surge suppressors on USENET is the only reason he's here.

Oh, I know.  He's been spreading his own peculiar brand of lies and
misinformation for years - a Google Groups search on w_tom1@usa.net will
show that he gets regularly spanked, whereupon he vanishes and pops up
elsewhere.

It's an idea to warn newbies and the unaware about him though.  

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John Doe - 24 Nov 2008 00:13 GMT
Matt <matt@themattfella.xxxyyz.com> wrote:
> ToolPackinMama wrote:

...

>> Later, after I read some comments here, I pulled the machine
>> apart and when I went to lift the heatsink off, the CPU came with
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> want to remove the HSF from the CPU, maybe you should try twisting
> it off instead of pulling straight up.

In other words, she said that the CPU came out of the ZIF socket
without releasing the ZIF latch. Maybe the CPU was just sitting on
top of the socket without being inserted. Maybe the socket was not
gripping the CPU pins. Whatever the case, something was very wrong.

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Dave - 22 Nov 2008 01:15 GMT
> Later, after I read some comments here, I pulled the machine apart and
> when I went to lift the heatsink off, the CPU came with it.  It came away
> easily, I wasn't violent. Stuck fast together - and the ZIF latch is still
> down in locked position.
>
> I thought "Oh!  That can't be good!"

Defective ZIF latch?  Well that would explain it.  You can expect the CPU
and heatsink to get kind of "glued" together.  But if the CPU came up with
little effort, that's not normal.

When you installed the CPU, did you have to put pressure on the ZIF latch to
push it down?  Not a lot of pressure, but there should have been some
resistance.  -Dave
ToolPackinMama - 22 Nov 2008 10:50 GMT
> When you installed the CPU, did you have to put pressure on the ZIF
> latch to push it down?  Not a lot of pressure, but there should have
> been some resistance.  

Yeah everything seemed normal at the time.
ToolPackinMama - 23 Nov 2008 01:47 GMT
>> Later, after I read some comments here, I pulled the machine apart and
>> when I went to lift the heatsink off, the CPU came with it.  It came
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> CPU and heatsink to get kind of "glued" together.  But if the CPU came
> up with little effort, that's not normal.

OK thank you, that's what I thought.
John Doe - 27 Nov 2008 15:22 GMT
>>> Later, after I read some comments here, I pulled the machine
>>> apart and when I went to lift the heatsink off, the CPU came
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> OK thank you, that's what I thought.

You didn't know?

Wow.
ToolPackinMama - 28 Nov 2008 10:39 GMT
>>>> Later, after I read some comments here, I pulled the machine
>>>> apart and when I went to lift the heatsink off, the CPU came
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>>> the CPU and heatsink to get kind of "glued" together.  But if the
>>> CPU came up with little effort, that's not normal.

>> OK thank you, that's what I thought.
>
> You didn't know?
>
> Wow.

Wow.  What a charming fellow you are.
John Doe - 28 Nov 2008 11:04 GMT
>>>> Defective ZIF latch?  Well that would explain it.  You can expect
>>>> the CPU and heatsink to get kind of "glued" together.  But if the
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> Wow.  What a charming fellow you are.

Looking for Prince Charming, ToolPackinMama?

> Path: flpi141.ffdc.sbc.com!flph199.ffdc.sbc.com!prodigy.com!flph200.ffdc.sbc.com!prodigy.net!newsfeed2.telusplanet.net!newsfeed.telus.net!feeder.erje.net!newsfeed.straub-nv.de!news.motzarella.org!motzarella.org!news.motzarella.org!not-for-mail
> From: ToolPackinMama <philnblanc comcast.net>
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> Xref: prodigy.net alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt:513759
> X-Received-Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2008 05:39:25 EST (flpi141.ffdc.sbc.com)
westom1@gmail.com - 22 Nov 2008 11:29 GMT
> Later, after I read some comments here, I pulled the machine apart and
> when I went to lift the heatsink off, the CPU came with it.  It came
> away easily, I wasn't violent. Stuck fast together - and the ZIF latch
> is still down in locked position.

 Appreciate what a heatsink and thermal compound do.  Thermal
compound does not hold a heatsink to an IC (ie CPU).  The best thermal
transfer (also called low thermal resistance) is a one medium
transfer. That means direct contact between CPU and heatsink.  That
means pressure must hold a heatsink to CPU.

 Minimally acceptable heatsinks are properly machined (also not
perfectly flat) so that the majority of two surfaces - CPU and
heatsink - make direct contact.  This is more than sufficient for
cooling any processor.  Lower that thermal resistance by filling
microscopic gaps with a thermal compound.  Resistivity from CPU
through thermal compound to heatsink is higher - a two medium
transfer.  But that higher resistance in parallel with direct 'CPU to
heatsink' conductive paths means an overall slightly lower thermal
resistance.

 Too much thermal compound only increases thermal resistance - makes
a heatsink less efficient.  Thermal compound is applied so sparingly
(a small pea) that only the center half of a 'CPU to heatsink'
interface has compound.  Compound must only fill microscopic gaps.  So
little thermal compound means more direct 'CPU the heatsink' contact.

 If any thermal compound appears at the 'CPU to heatsink' edge, you
have applied far too much and may create additional electrical
problems.

 Meanwhile that heatsink interface has no relevance to your problem.
A common myth often promoted by many who otherwise do not know what to
do next.  Many will also promote another myth about 'dried' thermal
compound.  Any minimally acceptable heatsink with no thermal compound
would provide sufficient cooling even for a decade..

  Removing a heatsink can only complicate a challenging problem and
will do nothing to solve it. This is not popular among the many due to
widespread technical naivety.  If heat was creating your problem, the
computer would boot and run for many seconds before just shutting
down.  That is not your symptom.

 Explained is how to minimize thermal compound and why for the best
heatsink interface - for a lowest thermal resistance.

 Until the power 'system' (not just a power supply) is known good,
then no other tasks will be productive.  The only productive solution
leaves you with a 'definitively good' or 'definitively bad' answer.
Anything less is wasted labor.  Without removing or disconnecting
anything, verify all power 'system' components are functional.  A
minute of labor.  Only then move on to other suspects.  Heatsink was
never on that list of suspects.

 Paul's discussion of beep code by "pulling the ram” is one of the
few posts that provides useful information.  No beep code with memory
removed?  However your FF already told us what Paul's test will
report.  His test only confirms it.  . Again, until many components of
the power supply system are verified (one minute of labor) then all
other solutions are called 'pissing in the wind' complete with adverse
consequences.  No beep code still leaves the same list of suspects -
which obviously never included a CPU heatsink.
Matt - 21 Nov 2008 17:58 GMT
> * ABIT AX78 AM2+/AM2 AMD 770 ATX AMD Motherboard
> * AMD Phenom 8450 Toliman 2.1GHz Socket AM2+ 95W Triple-Core Processor
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> which as far as I know means fully functional.  Monitor says "No
> signal".  No post beep, no drives responding.

May be a dumb question, but how are you getting this "FF" code if the
monitor is not getting a signal and you are getting no beeps?
Dave - 21 Nov 2008 18:18 GMT
> May be a dumb question, but how are you getting this "FF" code if the
> monitor is not getting a signal and you are getting no beeps?

LED POST display indicator mounted on motherboard.  If motherboard has
power, the display should show something.  Doesn't mean the motherboard is
good.  -Dave
Matt - 21 Nov 2008 19:42 GMT
>> May be a dumb question, but how are you getting this "FF" code if the
>> monitor is not getting a signal and you are getting no beeps?
>
> LED POST display indicator mounted on motherboard.  If motherboard has
> power, the display should show something.  Doesn't mean the motherboard
> is good.  -Dave

Ah, thanks.  That doesn't seem to be common on the motherboards I've
considered lately.  Maybe it's some kind of add on.

BTW, thanks for the lead on the GA-EP45-UD3R motherboard.  Guessing from
the number and positiveness of its newegg reviews in the past two weeks,
it is going to be a best seller.
Matt - 21 Nov 2008 19:46 GMT
>> May be a dumb question, but how are you getting this "FF" code if the
>> monitor is not getting a signal and you are getting no beeps?
>
> LED POST display indicator mounted on motherboard.  If motherboard has
> power, the display should show something.  Doesn't mean the motherboard
> is good.  -Dave

Like this, I guess.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16815158065
ToolPackinMama - 21 Nov 2008 21:42 GMT
> May be a dumb question, but how are you getting this "FF" code if the
> monitor is not getting a signal and you are getting no beeps?

There is a display on the motherboard
Matt - 21 Nov 2008 21:51 GMT
> Post code on MB is "FF",
> which as far as I know means fully functional.

Gosh, isn't there someplace to look up the meaning of the code?
Paul - 22 Nov 2008 01:23 GMT
>> Post code on MB is "FF", which as far as I know means fully functional.
>
> Gosh, isn't there someplace to look up the meaning of the code?

A good manual will include the codes.

If you don't have codes, go here for generic ones.

(BIOS PostCodes, upper left)
http://www.bioscentral.com/

Very few documentation efforts capture all the codes.
Which is why when some people catch a code on the
display, looking it up returns "reserved" for their
troubles. It means someone didn't bother to document
it.

At least one code value has to be reserved as an
initial value for the display, so you can tell
when the processor is dead. 0xFF is an example.

   Paul
 
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